Radio 4 12 noon Fri 8/12 - Trans kids and school

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001t304

Could be interesting, could be disappointing.

From what I know about her, she seems an amazing woman. She and her sister, Helen Saxby, mentioned in the programme, are twins. Stephanie was awarded the British Empire Medal recently.

https://stephaniedaviesarai.com/
https://www.transgendertrend.com/ This is the group she set up.
https://www.transgendermap.com/politics/media/stephanie-davies-arai/ Just seen this on a Google search. As usual, she is described as anti-trans rather than pro safeguarding and women's rights. Interesting, nevertheless. The quotes given seem to me to be eminently reasonable, but presumably don't to a dyed in the wool TRA.

Yes, you're right. In hindsight it was to explore their identity, not their gender identity.
Although I've remembered it incorrectly, it does highlight the way that the word "identity" is unhelpful in common parlence. There is a lot of pressure on children and young people to figure out their identity, as if it's a case of finding a label that fits. A significant component of which, according to what's taught in school, is an individual's gender identity. But I'll climb down off that particular soapbox 😬🤦‍♀️

Agreed!

This is really important. Trans activist groups have zero arguments (other than be kind and do as you're told) when arguing about transitioning children. So by appropriating the struggle for gay rights and making it about trans, the unaware can be sucked in to believing that this is equivalent to Section 28.
Worth remembering that the role Gendered Intelligence carved out for themselves at GIDS is drying up (see Hannah Barnes book) . So they'll be desperate to keep accessing children via schools if they're barred from gaslighting them via GIDS.

That bit jumped out at me too!

I started teaching as section 28 went out. 'Gender identity' was absolutely not a thing.

We tackled gender stereotypes in teaching but that was it.

According to Cleo young people want male students identifying as girls in girls' toilets

According to my daughter, they don't.

How many girls objecting does it take to counteract this?

SDA is a marvel. Any TRA must shake in their boots at the prospect of debating her. She knows everything and clearly articulates each point. Bloody love her!I

Also good to hear Michael Foran, he's great at disentangling the actual law from Stonewall fantasy law.

After a bit it stands out like a sore thumb when you see yet another articulate woman trying to advocate for safeguarding and women's rights labelled as anti-trans. What this tiny group of people wants has to be centred and the role of women and girls is to #bekind and suck it up without complaint. The risks this creates to the actual physical safety of other people in vulnerable positions don't even register.

Yes, thank you. It was the gender dysphoria definition. I should have checked my post. Cleo made a meal of it, even seemed surprised to be asked.

I think for people like Cleo "gender dysphoria" has turned into an identity that people can simply choose to adopt and it can mean whatever someone wants it to mean.

Good that the BBC managed to find someone other than Peter Tatchell to represent transactivism.

Very interesting twitter/X threads from RMW and MF. RMW believes they know the law better than MF and the BBC should have invited them on.
https://x.com/michaelpforan/status/1733269162204529003?s=46&t=lJm6-66fq4MtGcwwAsK6Kg

https://x.com/moirarobin/status/1733208952249212949?s=46&t=lJm6-66fq4MtGcwwAsK6Kg

I hope the links work.

RMW is stating the school premises regulations deal with “premises” not “use” of facilities and contain no definition of “boy” and “girl” so context specific interpretation means that “boy” includes “trans boy” and same for “girl”.

So RMW thinks trans girls can lawfully use girls toilets in schools.

I think RMW is forgetting what the law actually says - to obtain a GRC you have to be 18. As the recent judgement confirmed without a GRC a persons sex remains that recorded at birth. So no school pupil can lawfully use the opposite sexes single sex toilet facilities.

This was almost unlistenable for me. So much conflation around being gay and being trans.

straight out of the bat Chloe talks about how section 28 banned discussion in schools of gender identity. Did it? I tried to find reference to it but couldn’t and don’t have it in me to read/understand legislation.

Adam Fleming, who I normally like, was quite sharp and clipped by the end with Stephanie which was a huge disappointment. I didn’t know he was TWAW. His bias was evident throughout the show although they gave equal time to each viewpoint he didn’t pull Chloe up on any of the shit they spouted.

gay /= trans

If you thought Adam Fleming's bias was uncomfortable to listen to in that programme, don't listen to the earlier ones he did on trans and related issues. They're far more biased.

I get the impression Adam Fleming is just pure progressive and any ideas that are outside a narrow range of permitted thinking are simply wrong. Not a great trait in a high profile journalist with a lot of influence.

How does Cleo get to state that young women are happy to share their school toilets with teen boys? Where's the research for that?
I have yet to meet a teen girl who is comfortable sharing the toilets with boys!

I agree that Cleo was wrong to conflate sexual orientation and gender identity in Section 28. TRAs do that on purpose all the time - forced teaming.

Also, Cleo's assertion that girls don't mind sharing toilets and changing rooms with boys at school rang very hollow. All kids have been brainwashed into believing it would be unkind of them to object. It would be social suicide for teenagers to go against the prevailing trend of believing boys can be girls and vice versa. Within that age group, an accusation of transphobia is something to be avoided at all costs.

I was at a uni reunion dinner last week at a venue with trendy gender-neutral loo block.

Every woman paused outside, clocked the double man/woman signage and went in cautiously.

Every man strode in, realised he was in a loo block with women, looked appalled, and nipped back outside to check the sign.

Nobody looked happy about it.

This programme is now being repeated on Radio 4 in case anyone missed it first time and is interested to catch it.

Cleo represents everything I dread my DC encountering at school; such wilful, dangerous conflations ‐wtf!? Cleo is straight out of the TRA playbook. Cleo has clearly never worked in a school like mine, where single sex spaces are essential and treasured by pupils, parents and staff, and which really could not operate without them. Cleo is disingenuous in pretty much everything Cleo says.

I agree he is biased but there have been some good ones. On the feminist side the drag one was interesting- great final line. Also the one on music industry post the removal of female category - I riled my eyes at the non binary idiot

Gendered Intelligence (who Cleo represents I believe) was cited as one of the sources of extreme pressure at GIDs to affirm children below the age of consent. They also set themselves up as "experts" for schools despite the lack of any apparent qualifications.
They seem very determined to weigh in on what happens to other people's children.

Are you sure he’s biased? He gets a very fair range of opinions on, and allows the speakers to hang themselves rather than interrupting them. The GC/Science based experts I feel he questions them allowing them to be more specific as they shoot him down. He gives them material to work with.

I could be misremembering but I’ve always enjoyed listening!

Everyone seems to say they’re ok with mixed facilities until they bump up against the reality of it.