Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scotland - New prison rules on housing trans inmates

140 replies

Igneococcus · 05/12/2023 08:06

This was even a news item just now on the Radio 3 news.
Why they can't just say that no man no matter how we identifies should ever be placed in a women's prison, I don't know.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/72168d7f-1bde-4cac-8aff-fe3a0e37f72d?shareToken=2156479f381bbf74631154c5eef0f276

New prison rules on housing trans inmates

Those convicted of violent offences will not be eligible to switch prison after changing gender but critics say loophole remains

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/72168d7f-1bde-4cac-8aff-fe3a0e37f72d?shareToken=2156479f381bbf74631154c5eef0f276

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
CharityShopChic · 05/12/2023 08:11

Exacrtly what I said when the story was covered on Reporting Scotland as part of the morning news. Lots of talk about "individuals".

InefficientProcess · 05/12/2023 08:14

I think the people who come up with this stuff simply cannot grasp that they are always centring it around the wants of biological men and not thinking about the women they are hoping to be housed with.

Where is the consideration of how being housed with a biological man might affect all the women who have experienced male violence in this ‘individualised approach’?

Nowhere - because it’s always focused around the trans prisoner.

The policy makers don’t seem to understand the detrimental effect that being housed with male prisoners will have on many women. It doesn’t matter how ‘nice’ your assessment has decided the male prisoner is or how low you judge the risk of them being violent to female prisoners.

Igneococcus · 05/12/2023 08:16

I liked this comment under the article:

The prison service just need Humza on speed dial because he has an amazing ability to tell if transwomen are "at it".

OP posts:
Hoardasurass · 05/12/2023 08:39

The question that I have is what is an acceptable risk to women

stealtheatingtunnocks · 05/12/2023 08:56

It’s inhumane to put males in cells with women, the majority of whom have head injuries because some man beat them, or addiction or general appalling trauma.

keep prison single sex had all the stats. I can’t see why this awful practice is not recognised as torture.

Helleofabore · 05/12/2023 09:00

Igneococcus · 05/12/2023 08:16

I liked this comment under the article:

The prison service just need Humza on speed dial because he has an amazing ability to tell if transwomen are "at it".

He must be awesome at sniffing out corruption ! Oh …. Wait…

RudsyFarmer · 05/12/2023 09:02

Scotland is just another country lost to the extreme left. They will centralise again in about a decades time or worse there will be a far right swing.

InefficientProcess · 05/12/2023 09:10

The problem is that it’s lost to extreme individualism and individualist exceptionalism. The focus is all on the experience and feelings of trans woman are all anyone is thinking about, with the assessment about whether the exception should apply to that individual based on their individual characteristics.

but it’s not about individuals. Single sex provision serves broad and collective societal needs. The principle that prisons are single sex should apply to everyone. Individual exceptionalism can be applied within that - special provision within the male estate.

InefficientProcess · 05/12/2023 09:15

Same goes for all single sex spaces. This ‘oh that rule shouldn’t apply to me because…‘ logic is unhelpful.

these are not reasonable adjustments because they are collectively harmful.

InefficientProcess · 05/12/2023 09:17

This really isn’t a left right problem. It’s a problem on the individualism v collectivism spectrum.

So many issues are caused by this excessive focus on the individual.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 05/12/2023 09:17

InefficientProcess · 05/12/2023 08:14

I think the people who come up with this stuff simply cannot grasp that they are always centring it around the wants of biological men and not thinking about the women they are hoping to be housed with.

Where is the consideration of how being housed with a biological man might affect all the women who have experienced male violence in this ‘individualised approach’?

Nowhere - because it’s always focused around the trans prisoner.

The policy makers don’t seem to understand the detrimental effect that being housed with male prisoners will have on many women. It doesn’t matter how ‘nice’ your assessment has decided the male prisoner is or how low you judge the risk of them being violent to female prisoners.

Like the NHS Annex B - which talks only about the trans patient's preference for which ward they are placed on. Not a single word about the needs or preferences of the other patients on that ward.

TooBigForMyBoots · 05/12/2023 09:17

They're following England's lead then?
No idea why there should be any exceptions but apparently our politicians know better.Hmm

MarthaMayWho · 05/12/2023 09:18

I mean people are absolutely right, that this is unacceptable and puts the care and focus on males and uses females as props.

Saying that, the current statistics on trans prisoners show they are overwhelmingly overrepresented in sexual abuse data so in theory that's a lot less that will be considered.

Obviously that's before word gets out that by declaring pronouns you can have a lower security space in a less crowded prison with the opposite sex (who happen to be less violent and able to cause you harm)

I therefore can predict many once convicted like epiphanies promptly followed by 'detransition' on release.

First part backed up by data, second part is a personal hypothesis discussing men in general and not just trans.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/12/2023 09:21

I therefore can predict many once convicted like epiphanies promptly followed by 'detransition' on release.

This is already a thing apparently.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/12/2023 09:24

Like the NHS Annex B - which talks only about the trans patient's preference for which ward they are placed on. Not a single word about the needs or preferences of the other patients on that ward.

A few years back, a lot of people wrote to their local hospital etc and asked to see Equality Impact Assessments for "trans inclusive" policies which had been adopted. Where these had been done, it was quite striking how often they showed a complete lack of understanding of the purpose of the assessment and that it was supposed to be about the other 8 protected characteristics, not how trans people fitted into those characteristics.

MarthaMayWho · 05/12/2023 09:33

Well yes, but obviously there's no way to tell true trans or not because...
So I suppose I am just saying expect a further rise in rapid trans prisoners.

Well duh you'd think, but apparently the powers that be are unable to see it.

What they are chiefly trying to do is avoid bad headlines. Rapist in women's prison, not even my twaw friends will sanction that (although of course they are rapist gender etc, needs more robust assessment).

Connie nee Colin the fraud and theft serving felon on the other hand can be imagined as equal to women in prison (many who believe 'deserve it'. Emotional turmoil, reliving abuse and PTSD harder to imagine and so women experiencing distress about males in their single sex space will be discarded.

Policy will change again when service starts hemorrhaging female staff. This will take longer but is inevitable.

CorruptedCauldron · 05/12/2023 09:35

There’s a House of Commons committee report on women in prison. It acknowledges that women in prison are vulnerable and that a different approach is needed to deal with them. Some figures here on offending trends:

TV licence evasion was the most common offence for which women were convicted in 2019. 74% of those convicted for TV licence evasion were female and this offence accounted for 30% of all female convictions.11 The indictable offence groups with the highest proportion of women prosecuted were fraud offences (33% female) and theft offences (21% female), whilst the offence groups with the highest proportion of men prosecuted were sexual offences (98% male) and possession of weapons (93% male).

Surely, it’s morally bankrupt for women’s prisons to house any male with a female gender identity, however low-risk the individual is judged to be. Low-risk, piss off. I vote for no-risk, which means keep prisons single sex, no exceptions.

CorruptedCauldron · 05/12/2023 09:37

Link to the report: https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5803/cmselect/cmjust/265/report.html

MarthaMayWho · 05/12/2023 09:39

What's interesting about that as well is that it suggests women are regularly sent to prison over men who commit similar crimes. Surely the very definition of sexism that they are allowed to complete their punishment in the community and women, particularly those with children or pregnant ripped from theirs.

CorruptedCauldron · 05/12/2023 09:42

It’s because only 5% of the prison estate are female. 95% of offenders are male, so that means women get locked up for petty rubbish. It’s sexist as hell.

I watched Time, series 2, and although it’s a fictional drama, it was made very clear that prison messes up women’s lives and does untold damage to their children.

ArthurbellaScott · 05/12/2023 10:13

Agree that this is shit. Still centring male feels over women feels. Because men matter more.

ArthurbellaScott · 05/12/2023 10:17

From Feb 2023:

LESSONS LEARNED REVIEW OF TRANSGENDER INDIVIDUAL

As outlined in the Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Veteran’s Statement on Sunday 29January 2023, the Scottish Prison Service (SPS) has undertaken an urgent lessons learned review in relation to the management of a transgender individual currently in the care of the SPS in the male prison estate.

The purpose of the review was to provide the Chief Executive of SPS with a report into the management and decision-making rationale underpinning the management of the individual from when they were first remanded into SPS custody from court on 24 January 2023 to their most recent Case Conference review on 31 January 2023.

The key recommendations concluded from the case review are:

 INFORMATION SHARING PRE-CUSTODY AND POST-ADMISSION: There was
limited information, beyond the nature of the immediate convictions, available
regarding details of the individual’s current and previous offending or their life pre-
custody within the community from external partners to inform the initial assessment on admission to SPS custody. Since the individual’s admission into SPS custody, therehas continued to be conflicting and limited information obtained in relation to the individual and their life previously in the community. Therefore, it is recommended that a shared justice process is explored for the admission of transgender people to Scottish prisons, setting out relevant roles and responsibilities, including communications and information sharing processes (including a shared Memorandum of Understanding) to support decision making at admission and subsequent case conferences.

 COMMUNICATION: Quicker advanced alert and communication is required from
justice partners to SPS regarding transgender prisoners. Discussions have been
initiated with SCTS, Police, COPFS and ourselves, to ensure there is a clearer
approach to the transfer of transgender individuals from court to SPS custody. There will also be discussions with GEOAmey, the escorting contractor, to ensure
communication is improved between SPS and GEOAmey in these circumstances. It is further recommended that agreed communications are reviewed on a regular basis.

 INDIVIDUALISED APPROACH TO RISK ASSESSMENT: The review has concluded
that SPS policy was followed during each decision making process and risk
assessment. It is evident that the focus throughout each stage was utilising an
individualised approach for the risk assessment and management of the individual. It is recommended that this person centred, individualised approach, which seeks to balance the rights of the individual with the risks they pose to themselves and to others continues and is encouraged.
It is clear from the review that SPS staff carefully considered how to balance the rights of the individual with the risk they posed to themselves and to others during every decision making process and risk assessment process completed. However, due to the particular circumstances and heightened risks concerning this case, it is
recommended that the wider SPS Gender Identity and Gender Reassignment (GIGR) policy review considers improvements to ‘admission’ as well as ‘placement and management’ and sets out how the SPS should consider the weight of an individual’sprevious offending history as part of the case conference process.

 ADMISSION PROCESS - SPS would propose an urgent exploration of the process of immediate admission into a prison, where an individual may be removed from
association under Rule 95 conditions, for the sole purpose of risk assessment, as a
distinct and separate position from that of general admission, and located in the men’s estate, or the women’s estate. This would offer the opportunity to strengthen the balance between assessment of risk and harm to others, and the individual’s needs, welfare, and equality.

http://www.sps.gov.uk/Corporate/Publications/Publication-8963.aspx

Lessons Learned Review of Transgender Individual

Lessons Learned Review of Transgender Individual

http://www.sps.gov.uk/Corporate/Publications/Publication-8963.aspx

Brefugee · 05/12/2023 10:21

We know where the priorities are. Las paragraph:

Teresa Medhurst, chief executive of the prison service, said: “Every single individual in the care of SPS is treated with dignity and respect, with their rights upheld, and any risks carefully managed. Our staff have an excellent track record in working with our transgender population, and I know that will continue under this new policy.”