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Original poster

Scotland - New prison rules on housing trans inmates

140 replies

Igneococcus · 05/12/2023 08:06

This was even a news item just now on the Radio 3 news.
Why they can't just say that no man no matter how we identifies should ever be placed in a women's prison, I don't know.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/72168d7f-1bde-4cac-8aff-fe3a0e37f72d?shareToken=2156479f381bbf74631154c5eef0f276

New prison rules on housing trans inmates

Those convicted of violent offences will not be eligible to switch prison after changing gender but critics say loophole remains

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/72168d7f-1bde-4cac-8aff-fe3a0e37f72d?shareToken=2156479f381bbf74631154c5eef0f276

OP posts:
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14
MadeOfAllWork · 05/12/2023 20:09

GinJarRogers · 05/12/2023 15:34

Frood this is so true:

‘If they actually were viewed as women no one would give a fuck how they felt or what they wanted or what language they chose or what happened to them.’

The irony.

Wasn’t there a trans woman who was all upset because they got ignored in business meetings once they had transitioned. All the women just gave a knowing look.

Back to the point - I feel this is giving the topic a lot of sunlight.
I do feel, and I know it won’t be popular, that a trans woman who would be in danger from men should be somewhere safe, but that doesn’t mean in a woman’s prison.

Waitwhat23 · 05/12/2023 20:13

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/12/2023 09:21

I therefore can predict many once convicted like epiphanies promptly followed by 'detransition' on release.

This is already a thing apparently.

archive.ph/2022.10.04-232359/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/half-of-scottish-trans-prisoners-changed-gender-after-convictions-pftqbbhg6

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-trans-inmates-revert-males-25840252

Waitwhat23 · 05/12/2023 20:15

Crankywiddershins · 05/12/2023 19:00

No. Why should vulnerable women be forced to divulge their trauma or face being traumatised further? Is the comfort of a few men really that important? What level of trauma would be necessary to grant a woman safety? Rape? CSA? Physical violence?
I'd start with the presumption that EVERY woman in prison is vulnerable, if you'd looked at the statistics provided by a pp you would know that most of them are incarcerated for relatively petty offences, and a majority are victims of male violence before conviction.
So no.

Show quote history

80% of Scottish female prisoners have suffered previous head injuries, mostly through domestic violence -

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57103702.amp

ditalini · 05/12/2023 21:14

Rhona Hotchkiss has just been fantastic on the Nine.

Words were definitely not minced and it was great to hear someone lay it out so clearly.

Ramblingnamechanger · 05/12/2023 21:28

Was that Steph on the news….MR endometriosis in another role? Helen Joyce also , who was clear and unequivocal.

Toytransportemergency · 05/12/2023 21:29

I think my prev post might not have come across properly. I suppose I was suggesting that if enough individual women were classed as vulnerable, there would be no non-vulnerable women (I’m not explaining myself well but I hope people can work out what is in my head!) classed as suitable to be in with transwomen therefore transwomen have to go somewhere else.
I was trying to think of a workaround solution where womens’ needs were considered.

ditalini · 05/12/2023 21:40

Toytransportemergency · 05/12/2023 21:29

I think my prev post might not have come across properly. I suppose I was suggesting that if enough individual women were classed as vulnerable, there would be no non-vulnerable women (I’m not explaining myself well but I hope people can work out what is in my head!) classed as suitable to be in with transwomen therefore transwomen have to go somewhere else.
I was trying to think of a workaround solution where womens’ needs were considered.

Rhona Hotchkiss in her interview, reeled off the long list of categories of vulnerable male prisoners in the male estate.

There's already provision for vulnerable males that doesn't involve locking them up with females. We don't need a workaround.

Waitwhat23 · 05/12/2023 21:50

It's the appalling idea that instead of providing accommodations for vulnerable males in the male estate, vulnerable female prisoners instead be considered a useful resource to be utilised by the SPS.

They don't care about women. Their original policy was heavily driven by the Scottish Trans Alliance who have admitted they used it as essentially a testing ground for introducing self id in all public service.

334bu · 05/12/2023 22:23

Rhona Hotchkiss was absolutely superb on BBC Scotland the Nine. Unfortunately not yet on I Player but first item of the programme when available.

Crankywiddershins · 05/12/2023 23:04

Waitwhat23 · 05/12/2023 20:15

80% of Scottish female prisoners have suffered previous head injuries, mostly through domestic violence -

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57103702.amp

Show quote history

80%! That is horrific.

stealtheatingtunnocks · 05/12/2023 23:14

80% of women in jail have been battered by men so badly they have a head injury? This isn’t news. The News interest is that no one has reported on it. People don’t know how vulnerable incarcerated women are because no one cares enough to report on them. It’s ridiculous.

stealtheatingtunnocks · 05/12/2023 23:51

Rhona hodge kiss for FM. That’s what I say

Toytransportemergency · 06/12/2023 08:13

@ditalini but clearly we do need a workaround until the current policy is changed

Sexnotgender · 06/12/2023 08:14

Hoardasurass · 05/12/2023 08:39

The question that I have is what is an acceptable risk to women

Exactly the thought I had, I’d like to see them articulate that explicitly.

334bu · 06/12/2023 08:19

but clearly we do need a workaround until the current policy is changed

The new policy doesn't change anything really as violent men can still be sent to female prisons. The only workaround is not to send any male prisoner to a female jail.

ArthurbellaScott · 06/12/2023 09:10

No males in women's prisons, SPS. That's it. No ifs or buts.

I don't care how much a man wants to be in a woman's prison.

The answer is no.

SinnerBoy · 06/12/2023 09:24

ditalini · Yesterday 21:40

There's already provision for vulnerable males that doesn't involve locking them up with females. We don't need a workaround.

Yes, there are entire prisons dedicated to sex offenders, for example. Other prisons have vulnerable prisoner units, to keep prisoners likely to be assaulted, or exploited, away from the general population. Trans identifying men could go one one of them, as appropriate.

(Ie a sex offender wing for rapists, vulnerable prisoner unit for others - I'm not saying that all transw are sex offenders).

CorruptedCauldron · 06/12/2023 09:29

Think of the time saved. No need to waste resources assessing the level of threat that a trans criminal might pose to female inmates. No need to judge each one on a case-by-case basis. The solution is simple, right and fair. If the individual was born male, the individual goes to a men’s prison. A section of the men’s prison can be separated off for offenders who are trans. Women’s prisons must remain female only. TW are not women; they never have been, and they never will be. They are male people who wish they were female. It’s gaslighting to suggest otherwise.

ArthurbellaScott · 06/12/2023 09:33

Yes, this also solves the issues involving staff . It's awful how staff are ignored in this, too - putting female staff at risk (see Barbie Kardashian and some of the very violent males in Scotland who say they are women - Tiffany Scott, iirc).

ArthurbellaScott · 06/12/2023 09:35

'It was also reported that female prison officers at Low Moss have been ordered to carry out intimate searches of the offender despite him still having male genitalia.
They have claimed that their human rights have went "out of the window" due to this which started happening when Scott's gender identity changed from male to female on the prison's computer record system.
One prison insider said “nothing else about Scott has changed physically,” and women officers who refused to do the searches have to submit their reasons in writing.
The Scottish Government and Nicola Sturgeon came under massive fire after plans to transfer Scott to a women's prison were announced considering his violent background which includes assaults on prison guards and the stalking of a 13-year-old teenage girl.
A Low Moss officer spoke to the Daily Record about how the staff at the prison do not believe female workers should have to carry out full body searches on Scott or any other trans prisoner with male genitalia.'

MrsTwatInAHat · 06/12/2023 09:36

Transmen are not put in male prisons because they would get their asses sued if they came to harm. So somehow the reality of the harm of sticking a female in a male prison is recognised but in the reverse situation of sticking a male in a female prison it can be ignored. Makes sense? No.

Yes I don’t get this either - why is a trans man more worth protecting than any other woman? And if they can grasp that females are at risk from males in a male prison, why not in a female prison?

It also seems to be a clear case of sex-based discrimination (ironically). Transmen go in the prison for their sex by default, transwomen go in the prion for their sex only under particular circumstances. Being treated differently on the basis of sex.

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