Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

[ArthurbellaScott]

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

Good God, nobody has said that they are better off dead. Deaths of civilians in warfare are tragic, nobody is arguing with that.

It's also pretty awful to be taken hostage and raped...

Naama Levy, for example:
https://www.thejc.com/news/world/female-hostage-dragged-through-gaza-is-peace-activist-dedicated-to-israeli-palestinian-dialogue-2Lwa0wy3zA21prW7PQoNg5

There was pressure in 2007.

Literally no-one has said that women in Palestine think it's fine to be bombed by the IDF and this is 'liberation' - you're arguing in very bad faith and if you think you're persuading anyone to your side of the argument you're not because it's obvious lies and does not correspond with anything a single person on this thread has said.

What people are saying is that Hamas are ALSO bad for women in this region and no-one is addressing this reality. Why would any woman want to be ruled by the people who paraded the mutilated bodies of women through the streets?

The activism that calls for a unilateral Israeli ceasefire would result in Hamas in charge and with more power than ever. It would be seen by Hamas (and other countries supporting them) as a sign of weakness on Israel's part.

Hamas clearly stated policy is the eradication (genocide) of all Jews (including women and children) from the world. They do actually agree with Hitler on this point. So Israel believe they can't show weakness unless they want another genocide of Jewish people. From the evidence in the west at this moment, I can see why they think this - there seems to be rather a lot of support for antisemitism. Luckily for them they do have the US politicians on their side.

From what I've read (and obviously I'm not there, but some of it was from women journalists in Gaza) the direction of travel is against women's rights in Gaza. The more power Hamas have the worse i think that will be.

Anyway, I'm out of this thread now. The antisemitism on display is really disturbing. If I were Jewish I'd be very afraid right now, even in the UK.

Women’s rights are under attack in Israel as well by its current ultra-nationalist government.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/13/patriarchal-biased-israeli-women-fear-loss-rights-rabbinic-courts-legal-overhaul

”“I think most of the public who are out protesting don’t even know about this issue, but it’s hugely problematic for women,” said the Israeli lawyer Tamar Ben Dror of the group Itach Ma’aki – Women Lawyers for Social Justice, referring to a subset of changes within the Israeli government’s judicial overhaul package that would massively expand the power of state-run religious courts.

At present, rabbinic courts preside only over divorce cases, with some additional will and estate arbitration and religious conversion-related cases. Under the proposal, which has been largely overlooked by the protest movement, rabbinic courts would be granted the power to officiate on civil issues for the first time in 15 years, giving them equal status to the secular justice system.

The rabbinic courts follow halacha, Jewish law, and do not allow women to be judges. According to Dr Susan Weiss of the Centre for Women’s Justice, which provides legal aid and advocacy for women in Israel, rules allowing female witnesses are inconsistently applied, and rabbinical judges have barred female witnesses from testifying, even in domestic abuse cases. Rabbinic courts have also been accused of making it extremely difficult for women to receive gets, or Jewish divorces, from their husbands.”

Yep, right wing religious movements of whatever flavour rarely favour women. Bit of a shame everyone is enabling these men rather than trying to seek a middle ground.

The activism that calls for a unilateral Israeli ceasefire would result in Hamas in charge and with more power than ever.

Ceasefires are always bilateral or multilateral. It’s when all warring parties agree to stop fighting for an agreed amount of time to try and negotiate an agreement. I don’t agree a ceasefire would result with Hamas staying in power at all. It would probably lead to their surrender.

Si! The problem is men being in charge and they are the ones who want to keep fighting.

This thread is Feminism, rape, and Israel. None of the women in Israel whether Israel the country or Israel occupied Palestinian territory have the equal rights they should have. Rights they used to have are being rolled backwards.

And now the men want to have a war, so women and children get to die and be raped by men. Stopping war is feminist.

This had great impression on me
https://theintercept.com/2023/10/26/israel-palestine-feminism-ceasefire/

I’m sorry this issue isn’t being given enough attention. There is so much to be sad, angry and disappointed about. What happened was horrific and inexcusable. I suppose it appeared that people were united in wanting to hold the perpetrators of this accountable and rescue hostages.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/05/many-terrorists-abuse-women-research-extremist-attackers-violent-misogyny

@wednamenov :
It makes me think that Jews, aware on so many levels that they really 'don't count', probably feel they have no choice but to defend themselves with everything they have, because they know no one else ever will.

That's exactly how I think and most of my Jewish confreres; even the Lefty ones who woke up to find Progressives hate Jews too.

@Myfluffyblanket said
I absolutely understand the position of Women in cultures such as these but surely there are dads who don't want their daughters abducted , tortured , murdered and raped ; they should be having The Talk with their DDs too .

Fathers do not usually talk to their daughters about sex, let alone rape. Such a talk would require quite detailed instruction as to what they might face.

@ResisterRex said:
If there were a Bechdel Test for threads, this would fail it. The point was the silence from women about atrocities committed against women, and it's ended up with abhorrent posts like

"when we have ten dead Palestinian women for every dead Jewish woman,"

Which is a male-centric way of valuing women ie not at all. A lot of (not all of) the rest has been a discussion about trying to prove who's worst.

No, it is a way of pointing out that the Israelis, at least those in power, seem to think that Palestinian women are worth far less than Jewish women.

They also seem to think that Palestinians of whatever sex are worth far less than Israeli Jews.

And that Palestinian babies are just collateral damage.

This thread is about the de-humanising and rape of women and I don't want to detract from that. But if I can imagine anything worse than that, it's watching your child being burnt alive, or a child being made to watch his/her parents being tortured/raped before being killed. It's impossible to even contemplate sadistic evil like that.

Has there been any proof of life for any of those poor hostages? I fear terribly for them all but particularly the women.

@ResisterRex
“The point was the silence from women about atrocities committed against women, and it's ended up with abhorrent posts like
"when we have ten dead Palestinian women for every dead Jewish woman,"

The abhorrent post was the one before calling me a psychopath for caring about Palestinian women now and today in addition to the victims of Oct 7th, because it “minimised the suffering of Jewish women.”

That poster was out to silence women on the atrocities that Palestinian women have also suffered and are currently suffering.

So my response to that poster and only that poster, was if not now, when there are 10 dead Palestinian women for every dead Jewish woman, when would I not be a psychopath for also caring about the suffering of Palestinian women in Israel’s territory and are also suffering atrocities in the exact same conflict? When it’s 20 to 1 or sometime in 2024? When can we talk about all the women suffering in this conflict? When will Palestinian women become worthy of our notice in her view?

She certainly viewed Palestinian women as less than, my questions were to find out how much less than does she view them? And at what point can one break the silence and not be called a psychopath by her?

The article sets out how Jewish rape victims in conflict are being ignored by the likes of the UN. As well as a number of feminist groups. This thread is full of what about what about what about. It's proving the article: #metoo unless you're a Jew.

I can't find that quote in that post, and I'm not rereading the whole thread. It was said that all the terrorists involved in 7th October were dead but the IDF claim to have several hundred in custody. I expect time will tell who's got the right of that. I don't believe anyone has minimised the death and mayhem in Gaza. The people there are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Although oddly I think Israel probably cares more about the civilians there, even if it's just a front for the eyes of the world. If hamas cared they wouldn't have started this mess or, in a vastly asymmetrical conflict they have no chance of winning, they'd surrender. That they don't tells me they don't care for dead civilians.

There may have been no marches on the 7th or the 8th, possibly couldn't organise them in time or get the signs printed. But there were people cock a hoop on social media hearing about murdered and abused Israelis. I suspect a few bottles were cracked open too.

The bodies were still cooling when the excuses started.

I don't see the point of calling for a ceasefire that neither side is interested in. It seems like empty virtue signalling.

Hamas were voted in in 2006/7 they seem to have spent the intervening years raising a cohort of young men into monsters who came of age on 7th October.

There was a twitter account would publish a picture and a few biographical details every day of a man, woman, child or baby who was murdered in the holocaust. It was a lovely and poignant gesture. I've not seen one since Musk took over because I don't have an account. I hope it's still being done. I doubt they've run out of people to profile.

Now even posters of the abducted either get ripped down or defaced. And the suffering and murder of young women seems to be old news.

I can care about what's happening in Gaza too. I don't understand why other people find that so difficult.

I feel horrified that women and children on both sides of this conflict are in danger because of religious differences.

Que? Did you not say The point (of this thread) was the silence from women about atrocities committed against women, and after I explain the context of a phrase that disturbed you, you now comment back to me to move the goal to the thread only being about the Jewish victims, and mention of any other women being raped and murdered in the same conflict along with Jewish victims, as in side by side, equal mention is “what about what about what about” and proves MeToo unless you’re a Jew? So Jewish victims must be segregated from all other victims? We cannot discuss all female victims of the same conflict on one thread? NonJewish victims (and there were some on Oct 7th) are mere whataboutery to you?

At least you are not saying I’m a psychopath.

I think mostly they wanted to take a lot of hostages but a lot were killed by Israeli defence (along with their hostages) on their retreat.

We know taking hostages was a very important part of the plan.

Some very odd thinking on this thread. If hamas had not been stopped by the IDF on 7th October, they would still be killing - and raping and torturing - now. Its nothing to do with "men wanting war".

As for talk of a negotiated settlement - with hamas? Good luck with that.

I have named changed.

A dear family member was brutally murdered by Hamas at the rave on 7 October. A young woman he was with somehow did survive and is suffering deep deep trauma from her brutalisation. The rapes were not only evidenced by Hamas filming themselves, but also testimonies by survivors and evidence collected by first responders. (The perpetrators of the attacks have absolutely not all been captured - so the poster who is saying that is not doing so in good faith.)

I can tell you from first hand knowledge that awkward silence from feminist organisations around the brutality suffered by Israeli women is definitely real. I personally have had to let go of a few people because of heartless out of line comments, including - did it even really happen?

I personally was in a feminist group (UK based, with a strong London contingency) who were trying to 'contextualise' the horror on the 7th, 8th of October, even as images were coming out of Shani Louk's broken body, Noa Argamani pleading not to be killed, or this video of nightmares - (if you can stomach the blood between her legs you may also notice that her achilles heel was cut so she couldn't run). I couldn't believe how many vocal feminists were willing to throw these Israeli women under the bus because of how strongly they oppose Israel, or at least because they feel the fight for justice in Palestine is so important that Israeli sisters are inconvenient victims.

I know for a fact that Israelis are feeling an overwhelming trauma. The acts of violence triggered deep inherited fears, and Israelis (and in a sense Jews in general) feel they are alone in the world, in an existential fight for survival (whether this is true of not, I am not arguing, just this is the collective psyche).

I also want to say - despite experiencing gut wrenching personal loss, and having actual skin in the game, I have nothing but heartbreak and resolve for the women of Gaza who are also suffering unthinkable brutality. I cannot process the terror women and children are suffering from right now, and if I could I would reach out and embrace them - our suffering is connected - not in opposition to one another. It's not hard for me to say that because I stand for all women and because suffering like this has expanded my compassion and humanity, not decreased it. I have been lending the small voice I have urging people to find their human compassion in this brutal and horrific nightmare that everyone is not trapped in it.

I can tell a mile off people who are not holding peace and compassion in their hearts. People who think of this as a sick team sport.

In my world it is more common for me to encounter people who can barely bring themselves to mutter a few words for the Israeli rape victims (and there have been a few on this board, you know who you are and please, please don't get your back up, just reflect on this for a moment). I experience this a lot more since I travel in lefty circles.

I also say that anyone who believes that dehumanising or belittling the people in Gaza in order to support Israel equally need to just stop and reflect on this. Anyone who feels that they are harbouring prejudice against Palestinians, or Muslims because of these events - please also reflect on this. We cannot slip into prejudice and hate - if we do there is no way back to hope.

The whole conflict is rooted in sides. There are no sides, there are traumatised women and children (and men) who need to find a way back to peace through imperfect compromise, forgiveness, healing and deep humanity.

Small thing but it is more respectful if we discuss Israeli victims in this context. Some victims were Israeli Arabs, some where immigrants from Thailand, Tanzania, certainly not everyone Hamas brutalised or murdered was Jewish.

I think I get it. It's a conversation I've been having with my DH. I've been trying so hard to articulate this and failing (which is why I'm reaching for Baddiel's book).

But it hit me really hard during the Corbyn era, when - come general election time - decent good people wrung their hands and held their noses and voted for Corbyn in spite of the anti semitism. Whatever they were voting for or against (anti Tory), somewhere in between, Jews didn't count. Acceptable collateral damage. Even worse... zero recognition Jews were collateral damage. I didn't know how good people were ok with this?

Imagine now, if those votes had actually been successful and he was leading Britain through this time, especially after that Piers Morgan interview...? As much as I hate the Tories, the thought of that makes me viscerally shudder.

And on the ceasefire, imagine if the Nazis had been a lot more explicit at the very start about their plans to exterminate Jewish people? Imagine if Jews had had an opportunity to do something to stop them early on.

Isn't that where they're at with Hamas? If I was Jewish, Id be looking at it this way. Facing an opponent who has explicitly stated its ultimate objectives?

And I know people think it's only a few puny rockets, and that the Jews who are killed don't count, but it might not just be puny rockets if rogue Islamic nations fund and support Hamas even more. How can we ask Jewish people, given history, to do nothing at all in the face of an opponent who won't stop fighting, won't honour a ceasefire, won't release hostages, won't hand themselves in to spare the children, and is hell bent on a single objective. Pure fucking evil.

And knowing that every day in a million ways the world evidences the fact that Jews don't count... who else can they rely on to protect themselves except themselves?

@sonshineandshowers

Gaza as blockaded by land, air and sea because the Israeli government want a land ethnically cleansed of Arabs and Christians.

Complete nonsense.

Gaza is blockaded because Hamas are a legitimate enemy of Israel. They don't hide the fact that they are an enemy of Israel!

You're allowed to blockade an enemy, and obviously the whole situation is the fault of Hamas for wanting to destroy their neighbour.

@PorcelinaV

Oh dear, you've been had.

These are my thoughts too