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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.

1000 replies

ArthurbellaScott · 18/11/2023 09:31

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew/

I skipped parts of this article, specifically the first person account.

The rest of it I think is an important read.

MeToo unless you're a Jew

Feminist groups are whitewashing Hamas's crimes

https://unherd.com/2023/11/metoo-unless-youre-a-jew

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ArthurbellaScott · 24/11/2023 08:55

Chaitales · 24/11/2023 01:07

Also, the large women's rights organisations, children's orgs, human rights lawyers and activists etc, have been largely silent about the massacre of thousands of Palestinian women and children, c sections without anesthesia, babies dying in incubators due to no electricity. Condemnation has been few and far between and late, and especially missing on "international children's day". I think when it comes to this complex socio political conflict, there seems to be a silence for fear of backlash, losing jobs, roles etc, and the loudest voices have been of people, not organisations. All those voices shouting solidarity with women being forced to wear hijab for eg are silent about Palestinian women.

Both Jewish and Palestinian women have been let down.

I've seen a lot of statements of solidarity with Palestinian people. Including the minute's silence at the UN.

However, I read Ammesty's country report on both countries for last year and the best I can say is the sections on women rights were very scant - a very brief mention of court procedures for rape iirc.

So it's certainly worth considering that women's rights are poorly represented in both countries.

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ArthurbellaScott · 24/11/2023 09:03

Fantasyanswer · 24/11/2023 08:17

The starting point for this context for me would be the militant, barbaric Israeili government and military

See I think that’s where the difference lies in positions.

The starting point for me is Hamas’s attack on Oct 7th. Never before have I come across an atrocity where people were so focused on the ‘context’ and understanding’ for the perpetrators. All barbarity, all of the world’s worst atrocities have ‘context’. Those discussions can normally take place without using them as a mitigating factor for the horror that was committed. But for Oct 7th this has not happened. There was not even time to breathe or pause after the attacks, to absorb their horror. The first responses I heard in RL and online were ‘context’ and ‘understanding’ for the terrorists, if they were not actively rejoicing.

So here, uniquely, the focus was on understanding the perpetuators, not standing with the victims and their families.

And the ‘understanding’ and ‘context’ only goes one way. Those talking of understanding and context for hamas’s barbarity, never seem to apply that to Israel. Israel is not seen through the context of the history of the Jewish people. The current actions of Israel are not seen through the context of October 7th but through the ‘context’ of past Israeli government actions. This is an extraordinary act of giving Hamas a free pass, and an extraordinary act of never allowing Israel ‘context’.

I blame Hamas entirely for the Oct 7th attacks, nothing, nothing justifies or mitigates those and I hold firm to that, and primarily for the response they evoked. I look on astonished as Hamas, who deliberately committed acts of the worst type of utter depravity and cruelty to provoke an violent response from Israel, and yet seem held unaccountable by so many for the terrible ensuing suffering of both Israeli and Palestinian people. Even when, during the bombardment, they rejoice in the death and suffering of their own civilians l, as ‘martyrs’ even those those civilians never consented to be martyred. Still Israel is blamed and not Hamas. Hamas brought this on their people and they did it knowingly and are still applauding their suffering as ‘martyrs.

Yes. The thread is specifically trying to focus on women and feminist actions in relation to the situation, and specifically the curious silences on the mass rapes and abuses of Israeli women and girls.

The general situation is obviously an enormously complex subject so trying to keep it mostly related to that was I think helpful.

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pronounsbundlebundle · 24/11/2023 09:23

I think trying to apply 'context' to an horrific act is always a way of excusing the actions. Yes, there is context but on October 7th, to be blunt, they could have just come and killed people, they didn't have to torture them so horrendously. The parading tortured women through the streets to be spat on crosses a definite line and is a message about what Hamas stand for.

There is 'context' for why Israel exists and when people apply 'context' to Oct 7th they almost always ignore that 'context' of 6 million Jews dead in the Holocaust and many Jews made homeless - refugees - from other countries as well as centuries of antisemitic persecution. Or even the previous attacks on Israel. Some of the land grabs were in response to being attacked and needing strategic defence positions and yes, some of it is unjustifiable land grabs.

There is a reasonably convincing narrative (which to be clear I don't know whether it's true or not) that the Oct 7th attacks were more about strategic power alliances in the region and blocking the Saudi / Israeli deal than about fighting for the Palestinian people. I.e. both Palestinian and Israeli civilians are acceptable collateral damage in a pissing contest over which country will be dominant in the region.

At the same time as arguing we should accept refugees in this country those who unilaterally support Palestine fail to recognise that Israel is a state of refugees which had the blessing - when it was set up - of the international community. If Israel were to be destroyed by Hamas, where would these people go? Or do they all have to be killed? Is that what people are arguing for when they argue that Israel should not be where it is?

Of course there is also the 'context' that those most powerful in the international community did not set up the state of Israel in their own backyard (I know there are historical reasons for this, but still).

Anyway, women on both sides lose while men argue and hold the power.

RebelliousCow · 24/11/2023 10:28

BabaBarrio · 23/11/2023 20:13

This is true and as well as the suffering of civilian victims deliberately and purposefully killed, courts will also look at how many victims the war criminal on trial killed. As well as increasing sentences for acts of brutality, sadism, torture, rape, they also increase sentences for acts that result in the death of dozens or hundreds or thousands of civilians in one pull of a trigger. In all cases they consider the age of the civilian victims. Purposefully causing the deaths of children and babies will result in higher sentences too.

The reason I say there isn’t much difference though is because, take your example raping, disembowling a pregnant woman that is enough by itself to carry a life sentence with no possibility of parole. The same if the alleged tank incident is true, pulling that trigger and splattering bits of a dozen wounded hospital patients into chunks of flesh, some of them children, is also enough to carry a life sentence with no possibility of parole.

There is a line of a war crime that once anyone crosses it, it’s a life sentence. They are all criminals imprisoned for the maximum sentence. So there is no point arguing which criminal is nicer or more moral in my opinion. It won’t change their sentence.

I'm not interested in your excuses or attempts to argue equivalence.

Hamas precipitated a war. Israel gave notice of that war. Wars, by their nature inevitably involve civilian deaths. So we may as well say that war itself is a crime, and there could certainly be arguments to that effect - but theoretical only. When has any war not involved civilian deaths? When a war wilfully targets civilians - such as when chemical weapons were used against civilian populations in the Syrian war - that is a war crime.

In the days of wall to wall media coverage and everyone having a view on social media and twitter ( including terrorists and combatants themselves) wars can be endlessly raked over and commented upon. This is certainly what is happening at present. -and which is why the IDF is always keen to provide supporting evidence for the purpose and reason for their actions.

War criminals who ordered the torture and execution of civilians during, for example, the Bosnian-Serbian war have been brought to trial ( Slobodan Milosovic) - not so governments, unless it could be shown that they acted with wilful intent that was contrary to its stated war aims.

Hams is the party that is the war criminal here. It wilfully targeted civilians, including babies and children and then it scurries into its tunnels whilst forbidding its citizens to leave the war zone. Some of its members live in some luxury in foreign countries with their own children and wives. -while condemining the children and wives of others to death.

https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-mousa-abu-marzouk-tunnels-gaza-protect-fighters-%20not-civilians

Hamas Official Mousa Abu Marzouk: The Tunnels In Gaza Were Built To Protect Hamas Fighters, Not Civilians; Protecting Gaza Civilians Is The Responsibility Of The U.N. And Israel

Mousa Abu Marzouk, a member of the Hamas Political Bureau said in an October 27, 2023 interview that aired on Russia Tod...

https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-mousa-abu-marzouk-tunnels-gaza-protect-fighters-%20not-civilians

pickledandpuzzled · 24/11/2023 10:55

Gosh, the journalist really didn’t want him to elaborate there, did he?!
leading questions.

pickledandpuzzled · 24/11/2023 10:57

Brave man, naming himself while calling out Hamas leadership.

Fantasyanswer · 24/11/2023 12:37

pickledandpuzzled · 24/11/2023 10:55

Gosh, the journalist really didn’t want him to elaborate there, did he?!
leading questions.

Bloody hell, he did not did he? Cut that man right off when he started attacking the cowardice of Hamas, turned away from him, you can see the man still trying to talk, still trying to speak, and not being allowed, and looking frustrated that he is not allowed, whilst the reporter returns to his Israel-only blaming.

deepbluebell · 24/11/2023 15:18

x.com/ostrov_a/status/1727746930124435572?s=46&t=TB4EYs5rzJ6WB5dXCjTvLA

Apologies if this has already been posted

thatsthewayitis · 24/11/2023 15:21

13 women and children hostages have just been released in exchange for 39 Palestinians.
I hope they are ...I don't know what to say; less brutalized than I imagine?

IcakethereforeIam · 24/11/2023 15:24

Judith Butler, is she, sorry, they philosophising about the difference between rapist and rape-ish? Because it's all about 'context'. Bet she, sorry, they doesn't lose her, sorry, they's job.

Fantasyanswer · 24/11/2023 15:39

Igneococcus · 24/11/2023 14:51

I've not had the guts to read this properly yet. I don't envy Robert Crampton watching this:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/877f312c-a645-4abf-8d20-e7e95384777d?shareToken=9d9037c8fc92da7919a7441083a92e6e

Its worth reading and not as graphic as many of the things I have read.

Robert Crampton has been really good on this issue. Respect to him.

RainWithSunnySpells · 24/11/2023 15:49

what you are about to see had nothing to do with the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people and everything to do with the desire to murder Jews

This is truly frightening.

EdithStourton · 24/11/2023 15:56

The hostages due for release today are now in the hands of Israeli security services.

IcakethereforeIam · 24/11/2023 15:57

This bit sounds familiar

Here’s another paradox: the screening last night was organised, in common with many other Israeli embassy and/or Jewish Board of Deputies events, in a semi-secret, hush-hush fashion. This policy is born of a legitimate fear of pickets, demos or worse. Besides Davis, another well-known entrepreneur said a few words before the film. I spoke to him afterwards and was sadly unsurprised when he asked to remain anonymous for fear of reprisals against his firm and family. His anxiety is probably well founded.

Thank you for the share token.

Fantasyanswer · 24/11/2023 16:01

Here's more quotes from it. He is talking about having watched the videos and heard the dialogue between the Hamas fighters, including them 'playing' with the bodies of murdered Israelis.'
The two most common words spoken by Hamas that day seem to have been, when translated, “God” and “dog”. Two short words, one the reverse of the other, summing up their feelings and their motivation, and perhaps suggesting how so many people can lose their minds and their humanity to the extent of being able to do what they did. God — their God — is great. Jews are not people, but dogs
I don’t think I heard the word “Palestine” spoken once. I didn’t hear the word “Israeli” either. Beside God and dog, the next most frequent word was “Jew”. Sir Mick Davis, the businessman and former Tory party treasurer who helped to introduce the film, made the point that “what you are about to see had nothing to do with the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people and everything to do with the desire to murder Jews”. He was spot-on. “Hamas was proud of what it did and has said it would do it again,” he added. “The people who march for Palestine in London and elsewhere need to be very careful about what banner they march under.” He’s right about that too

This struck me about the video footage I have seen too. For all western apologists like to make a (bogus) distinction between Israel(is) and Jews to justify their hatred of the former, in all the footage I have seen, Hamas are clear over and over that they are looking for Jews to abuse and murder.

RainWithSunnySpells · 24/11/2023 16:15

This may seem like a tangent, but while reading this thread I couldn't help but think of a TV programme that Ian Hislop presented about fake news. One of the fakes on the programme was the book 'The protocols of the elders of Zion.' It is clear from that programme that it still sells in great numbers (the Middle East is a big market for it IIRC) despite having been proved to be a fake many, many years ago. How much damage has this one fake book done? How much does it continue to do?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00095hv

'Ian digs into one of the most pernicious conspiracy theories of all time - the protocols of the Elders of Zion. He is disturbed to find this virulently anti-Semitic tract available with one click and rave reviews on Amazon, despite comprehensive factual debunking a century ago.'

BBC Four - Ian Hislop's Fake News: A True History

Ian Hislop's provocative take on 200 years of fake news, its causes and consequences.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00095hv

Fantasyanswer · 24/11/2023 16:49

Disturbingly, I think anti-semitic conspiracy theories are making a real comeback, piggy backing on the wider conspiracy movement that has taken off. I have an acquaintance who is clearly deep in the conspiracy world, believing many, many conspiracies, and he has spoken about how the victors have spread propaganda to slander Hitler and the Nazis and he referred to 'the Jews' in air quotes. So yes, being in the conspiracy world, which I now thoroughly see as a pernicious and quite dangerous place, has taken him into extreme right wing anti-semitic tropes.

ArthurbellaScott · 24/11/2023 17:05

I'm sorry for my cowardice but I have only read some parts of that article.

'I wouldn’t want my kids to see what I saw last night, or even read what I’ve written above, even though they’re in their twenties.'

The impact of the attack on October the 7th is still landing, for me at least. Again, I'm sorry for my cowardice in not reading all the details.

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Imnobody4 · 24/11/2023 17:31

Oh and this from Burley's own feed. I'm not sure this qualifies as professional objectivity.

twitter.com/Daniel_Sugarman/status/1727959169548869804?t=OPRJg5EM8lul0PcQp6NJLQ&s=19

thatsthewayitis · 24/11/2023 17:58

not released

Feminism, rape, and Israel. Content warning.
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