Policing women’s clothes or reasonable expectation?

[SorryAuntLydia]

I dropped my teens at school yesterday and instead of the usual 2 teachers at the gate, there were 10 (possibly more I couldn’t see). They were stopping all the girls and commenting on skirt length. Those whose were deemed too short (almost every year 10 and 11) were told to stand in a particular area of the playground where names were taken before they were allowed to go to class.

And subsequently the parents were sent an email about skirt length needing to be on or below the knee, failure to adhere means detention etc.

I am really uncomfortable about this.
On the one hand it’s the uniform policy so it’s what we signed up to.
On the other hand I couldn’t help but look at the girls being herded into a corner of the playground and feel uncomfortable. And I also think that skirt length should be personal choice for young women - it doesn’t impact their learning so why does it matter?

This is probably an aibu. But I need a feminist view on it, please.

Do you think it’s fair for me to complain? Either at the way in which this was done? Or that the uniform policy should be changed? I’m sure my imagination is being overly dramatic and don’t mean to offend, but it reminded me of the images of Iranian women being berated for being improperly veiled.
Please help me untangle my thoughts on this.

My view is that teenage girls need to be educated on the male gaze and feminism. And then left to make their own judgements. There is something very distasteful about the policing of women's clothing. The consequences are obviously different to women being beaten for not wearing a hijab in Iran but the basic principle is the same - women being sanctioned for not dressing according to a modesty principle dictated by others.

Personally I don't think young girls should be wearing micro minis to school at all and I think its a good thing if uniform rules prevent this and if it is enforced. Young girls going about in a very short skirt isn't feminist its a trend dictated by the patriarchy which seeks to objectify and sexualise women and girls from a young age. Knee length skirts or trousers should be fine to wear to school.

It is to avoid arguments of this type that some schools have said, "The whole bloody lot of you will wear trousers. Now sit down at your desks and shut up."

This is what I always say to the kids at school when they're moaning on about uniform/jewellery/hair styles/piercings: do you there should be zero rules whatsoever? Should kids be allowed to come to school in their actual underwear, seeing as it "doesn't impact their learning"? And then basically everyone accepts there do need to be some rules. And then I explain that of course everyone draws their own line at slightly different point in the sand, and when they're out and about in their own time they are free to make that decision for themselves. But while they're in school, the school gets to draw the line.

And if that fails, I ask them how they'd feel if I (their overweight, middle aged teacher) wore the micro mini skirts and cropped tops that they're moaning about not being allowed to wear. And then they usually agree that that wouldn't be a good thing!

If you have a uniform then you enforce it. And it does inhibit girls to have to be careful about how they sit, walk and move.

Knee length is fine, how would you enforce anything higher?

And I wish fewer parents had a 'shall I complain about this' response whenever their school does anything!

If anything girls need to be educated on rape stats, abuse stats, predatory men and red flags. Children are famously not very good at 'making judgements', hence parents and schools having responsibility for their wellbeing.

And as for 'policing' clothing. We don't allow children to put naked pictures on the net, either.

women being sanctioned for not dressing according to a modesty principle dictated by others

If women/girls want to

• walk down the road with skirts so short you can see their knickers, is that ok? (I'm never in schools these days, but the only women I see doing this are teenage schoolgirls)
• go out shopping topless on a hot day, is that ok?
• how about completely naked at the local park?

Yes of course women dress according to "a modesty principle dictated by others" - or by their own reading of what is appropriate in society and a sense and sense of bodily privacy.

Men don't have as many rules, but maybe they just don't go out showing body parts in the way that women do. I'm yet to see a man/boy in shorts so short that they show his bum cheeks (top of underwear showing, yes, but not the bottom part). And if they take their tops off on hot days, they might get away with it in the street (to some tutting), but not at work in an office, or in a school, or in a pub, or many other places.

It is ironic but basically true that "Men don't have as many rules" but also "Men don't have nearly as much freedom".

I shudder at the idea of rolling a school skirt up, as when I was at school, girls were routinely sexually harassed and assaulted in the dinner queue by boys trying to stick their hands up the skirt.

You see, I'm old enough to have had a really short uniform skirt because miniskirts were the fashion at the time and also not to have had to deal with that sort of treatment from the boys in our school.

Yes don't know how lucky you are until things get worse.

DD's school has just changed skirt policy from "reasonable, to be decided by staff" to a measurable length after literally describing the length of some skirts as "obscene" in a school letter. I feel very uncomfortable at the tone and the frothing over young girls' bodies.

Personally I think the minute you get the tape measure out and start talking about girls' thighs you have lost the argument, the high moral ground, the battle for hearts and minds etc. I grew up in a culture where school uniform doesn't exist and I somehow manage to dress appropriately every single day.

Men don't have as many rules, but maybe they just don't go out showing body parts in the way that women do. I'm yet to see a man/boy in shorts so short that they show his bum cheeks (top of underwear showing, yes, but not the bottom part). And if they take their tops off on hot days, they might get away with it in the street (to some tutting), but not at work in an office, or in a school, or in a pub, or many other places.

If (since) men are going around in public places sans shirt, they are in fact showing off more body parts than women do. I never see women shirtless on the street.

Tiny shorts are manufactured and sold to women, but not to men. The women aren't independently coming up with this idea. If you're a woman who wants shorts with a decent inseam so they cover most of your thigh and don't ride up to be right at the top of your thigh when sitting down, often you're going to struggle. Meanwhile, shorts for men are usually down to the knee or a 3/4 down the thigh. The length of short that's standard in menswear is rare in womenswear.

I am a strict feminist and lectured my girls on how short skirts played into the patriarchy but they still rolled them up. The fear of not fitting in with the peer group (my dd suffered badly from bullying) was more powerful than me or the school leaders. I think schools should either introduce a choice of either trousers or ankle length maxi skirts (like the Rugby boarding school girls wear).

There needs to be some balance to it all. Schools want their pupils to look good and not overly subvert the uniform. Having a school skirt or trousers that can only come from the school shop/uniform supplier is a step too far. Stipulating a style or length is ok so long as it’s a widely available product. Leggings are not a substitute for school trousers. A jersey fabric tube skirt is definitely not a school skirt.

I’m not sure kids should get detention, parents should get a letter/email

Haven't read all the discussion, but if schools want to enforce skirt length, they need to provide more uniform skirt options than a single one from a single shop. DDs (girls) school specifies skirts from one shop which does skirts in 3 lengths, but only has the shorter two in stock. The long skirt is 'special order'. DD is 5'9" and last year I ordered the long skirt in November. I talked to the shop every month, but cancelled the order in April as it still hadn't been made. Luckily the school understood that there wasn't a lot I could do about it and said I could just buy any skirt that looked similar to the uniform one. But I know that not all schools are that pragmatic.

The sexualization of women that results in them having to be covered completely is not so different than the sexualization of women that says they should wear their skirts short.

So I think OP you have it backwards.

Our society resolutely sexualizes women's clothing and presentation, and it tries to make the girls themselves internalize this, so we find that we have to push back against it. Schools insisting that uniforms are not overly sexualized is part of making schools into a place that is healthy for girls and young women.

Here's another take:

No teen really chooses what thwy wantbto wear. The fashion industry chooses for them. No teen demands baggy trouser/skinny jeans/flares/stilletos/wedge heels when they are out of fashion.

Fashions roll round in circles but it is regularly the fashion for girls/women's tops to be tight/cropped/low-cut/ see-through, and for women's bottoms to be tight and short.

In my lifetime I dont ever remember a time when it was mainstram fadhionable for mens tops to be low-cut or cropped, or for men's shorts to be so short that you can see their butt-cheeks.

Why do you think that is? And how might it affect our approach to "just letting the girls wear what they want"?

I don’t have a daughter but have never really seen the issue with this rule. Some of the skirts I see on the school run are ridiculously short. Thigh length minis, fluttering around the hips, rather than any length remotely related to the knee. All the while, boys are walking around comfortably covered up in trousers.

The idea that skirts get this short through a growth spurt is just ludicrous. Buy a skirt that is below the knee at the beginning of the year and surely some growth will be accommodated. Trousers should be an option for everyone too.

Yes, uniform can be expensive but there are secondhand options. The parents of boys have to buy new trousers to accommodate growing, as they look ridiculous as soon as they get too short, so I don’t see the issue.

Girls are at school to learn, to develop their knowledge and talents to their fullest potential, not to express themselves through their clothing. Sure, some girls will still roll their skirts but both parents and schools should enforce the rules rather than complain about ‘policing’. Schools have to ‘police’ all kinds of things to make schools a safe place. Or offer trousers, again.

A greater issue surely is that when I tried to look up the Rugby School skirts mentioned above, Google came up with the ‘restricted images due to over 18 content’ warning - not good…

A short skirt is not actually freedom.

The problem is loads of girls walk around with their school skirts rolled up so far you can see their arse cheeks. Thats not appropriate anywhere in public imo, unless in a club maybe, where you might expect risque clothing.

If a man or older boy was walking around showing arse cheeks there would be an outcry about him being a pervert/paedo/getting off on being shocking so it works both ways inmo.

If you've 'always' worn short skirts then I'm guessing you're happy with the shape/length of your legs. Plenty of teenage girls, for whatever reason, aren't.

I attended two secondary schools with very different policies. In one, your bottom half was very lightly policed - as long as it was plain and in the right colour, it was fine. Some girls wore trousers, some wore mini skirts, some wore full length, and everything in between.
The other, had a skirt length policy (standard skirt from a particular shop and a max height above knee). But every single girl rolled their skirt up to make it much shorter.

So, at one, I had an ankle length skirt I was very happy and comfortable in.
At the other, I had a rolled up skirt I hated, and was constantly paranoid my underwear would be on show, but I couldn't drop it because I'd stand out and I'd have hated that even more.

As a result, I'd say having a school skirt length policy is actually counter productive!

The idea that skirts get this short through a growth spurt is just ludicrous. Buy a skirt that is below the knee at the beginning of the year and surely some growth will be accommodated.

This doesn't work in a school with a single uniform supplier as it often isn't possible to buy a skirt that is below or even on the knee and have it fit on the waist. As PPs have said - some schools insist on a single supplier who only offer a skirt that only comes in one length. So if you want to get a longer skirt the only option is to increase the waist size, which is no good for tall, thin girls. DDs uniform supplier has 3 skirt lengths, but in practice only 2 are available. Both were too short for DD, but luckily the school was pragmatic about it and didn't mind.

Having a tall, slim child I do understand about waist vs length. Buying trousers can be an issue as they tend to fall down unless heavily adjusted! Clearly uniform suppliers need to provide for this situation. But there are things that can be done to take in a waist: adjusters, putting in elastic or even taking out a section. Most dry-cleaners will offer services of this kind.

However a lot of the skirts I see are 8-10 inches above the knee. I can see this as clear as day from across the road - as can any letch sitting in his car or van with a phone in his hand! That length didn’t happen because of overnight growth or because all those parents are each desperately trying to find a skirt that fits around their slim daughter’s waist. For most of those girls this is clearly a deliberate choice to not follow uniform rules. I don’t really understand why they do it but it is a rule like any other.

Parents should buy a skirt that is as close to the correct length as humanly possible.
Dispose of old skirts that are too short.
Let the school enforce the uniform rules and support them in doing so.
Ask school for uniform trousers and shorts.
Encourage girls to focus on learning, ambition and achievement.

I mean where do you draw the line? What would you say if they turned up naked? We must respect their right to nudism?