Policing women’s clothes or reasonable expectation?

[SorryAuntLydia]

I dropped my teens at school yesterday and instead of the usual 2 teachers at the gate, there were 10 (possibly more I couldn’t see). They were stopping all the girls and commenting on skirt length. Those whose were deemed too short (almost every year 10 and 11) were told to stand in a particular area of the playground where names were taken before they were allowed to go to class.

And subsequently the parents were sent an email about skirt length needing to be on or below the knee, failure to adhere means detention etc.

I am really uncomfortable about this.
On the one hand it’s the uniform policy so it’s what we signed up to.
On the other hand I couldn’t help but look at the girls being herded into a corner of the playground and feel uncomfortable. And I also think that skirt length should be personal choice for young women - it doesn’t impact their learning so why does it matter?

This is probably an aibu. But I need a feminist view on it, please.

Do you think it’s fair for me to complain? Either at the way in which this was done? Or that the uniform policy should be changed? I’m sure my imagination is being overly dramatic and don’t mean to offend, but it reminded me of the images of Iranian women being berated for being improperly veiled.
Please help me untangle my thoughts on this.

As with most of these things you have to strip this right back. Why do women want to show of their legs? What is it about a short skirt that is attractive to them? ( especially as teachers above have said they spend a lot of time trying not to show their underwear)

Why do women also want to show of cleavage? Why do men not want to show off their legs unless it's for practical reasons?

The whole of women's dress is about sex, attracting a mate. If women want to choose to wear a short skirt why are they choosing that? Young women won't be consciously thinking why, it's just part of the paradigm of being a woman.

Naw, just have the same policy as the boy’s supermarket trousers, right colour, right shape, no more detailed than that.

George do a great dupe for the standard Trutex sticged down pleated for a third of the price, at two for £12 rather than £18 each it’s a lot less onerous to replace them when the student has a upwards growth spurt.

The coloured waistband seems like a. bonkers waste (pun intended) of money when jumpers exist! Amazed that no one pointed it out before the policy was announced.

My daughter jokes that in her school, girls pull their waistbands down around their hips, rather than roll them up!

“I am really uncomfortable about this.
On the one hand it’s the uniform policy so it’s what we signed up to.
On the other hand I couldn’t help but look at the girls being herded into a corner of the playground and feel uncomfortable. And I also think that skirt length should be personal choice for young women - it doesn’t impact their learning so why does it matter? “

By targeting the female pupils in this way the school is giving the female pupils a learning experience - learning that how they look and what they wear is more important than their academic achievements; learning that their purpose in life is to be subjected to scrutiny for their appearance; learning that if a middle aged man finds their appearance arousing that’s their fault and not his responsibility to be more professional.

A battle that schools have been losing since the 1960's.
FWIW why bother? I can see the value in the arguments about not making the kids who don't wear skirts short stand out but that's a poor reason.
Foster school identity and pride in other ways, make sure girls know their value beyond their appearance but don't stigmatise showing some skin..

Torn on this.
The way it was done makes me very uncomfortable, the rule not so much.
I take on board the peer pressure aspect to wear skirts shorter muddying the issue.
I'd be curious about what the girls' thoughts and experiences of the whole issue might be if they were asked to participate in an anonymous survey. Having had two children go through a none uniform school and then sixth form, I'm not aware of the same sort of issues when the children have complete freedom over what to wear.

Looking back on my own school days we had a rule around skirts that no one followed, however we then had to wear tiny pe skirts which made any other skirt rules pointless anyway. No one would be seen dead in the school issue pe knickers we were meant to wear under.

Then you are not aware of the harassment that goes on in co-ed schools. I don't see short skirts as rebellion against anything but Puritanical attitudes but I was not allowed to wear mini skirts to school. Outside, yes, though my father was a bit dubious! Appropriateness is the key. Very short skirts are not appropriate in school.

“They also did this at my DCs school. Where the school skirt costs £25 and is only available from one supplier, the boys trousers can be bought from a supermarket. The skirt only comes in one length per waist measurement, so if you are tall and skinny you have to chose between meeting the school on the knee length or it falling off at the waist - it's got an adjustable elastic waist button but no belt loops or anything. It's beyond archaic.”

@DisingenuousBatshittery I can see that this is really annoying (and I would get rid of uniforms completely) but the solution is for you to learn to use a needle and thread, or teach your DD to. Taking in a skirt or adding belt loots to it is an incredibly simple task. The solution isn’t for girls to have too short akirts it’s for parents to learn some basic sewing skills and adjust the too big waist.

Surely most families are constrained by distance and admissions policy wrt boundaries? So the idea of a choice is not really accurate.

We used to have these checks when I was at school, most girls weren’t bothered and grumbled and unrolled their skirts, parents of some girls who’d had them turned up were contacted (although I’m guessing parents knew they were having them altered) and I was exampt as the teacher doing checks had enough sense to see I was wearing hand me downs and hadn’t chosen a short skirt.

I think it was all part of cat and mouse of being students and teachers. Pushing boundaries and getting away with it and then not getting away with it. Teenagers know the uniform policy and they choose to take a risk they’ll get away with it. The ones who can’t handle being caught out, don’t do it.

OP are the girls allowed to wear trousers?

Children need to have boundaries and often don't realise the implications of, for example, fishnets, heels and short skirts. So sometimes these rules are for their safety and wellbeing. It can be hard if we don't want to explain the problems to girls too young to understand.

Edit for garbled syntax

Wow
The whole of women's dress is about sex, attracting a mate. and Why do women want to show of [sic] their legs?
☝🏽
This is why I asked the question in FWR.

They are allowed to wear trousers but there have been multiple issues from school policing the girls’ trousers because they are wrong 😬 (too tight, too thin, too low rise, etc) so very few girls bother now. Those who want/need to be fully covered for faith/cultural reasons wear floor length skirts. And no one peer pressures them into doing otherwise - it’s a well integrated multicultural school.

@DisingenuousBatshitteryI can see that this is really annoying (and I would get rid of uniforms completely) but the solution is for you to learn to use a needle and thread, or teach your DD to. Taking in a skirt or adding belt loots to it is an incredibly simple task. The solution isn’t for girls to have too short akirts it’s for parents to learn some basic sewing skills and adjust the too big waist.

This task is going to fall overwhelmingly on women isn't it. Yet more women's work that men and boys don't have to concern themselves with.

I think school uniforms are handy, and there needs to be some rules if they're going to be, well, uniform, but publically hearding girls with inappropriate skirt lengths together to have their names taken is incredibly heavy handed, and does smack of policing of female bodies.

I think uniforms should be comfortable and easy to clean, so for me it'd be tracksuits and trainers every day for me.

It's the desire to look nice that is probably behind most short school skirts not availability of decent clothes which fit or can be worn with a belt

Funny how the desire to look good which falls heavily on women and girls isn't challenged , just the need to learn to sew

@FreddysSquishyBollock i used to work for an IT company (not a nightclub or a goth shop) with a mainly young work force, and nearly all the young women wore mini skirts. Some looked liked they were about to go clubbing straight after work.

Just because YOU dont wear short skirts to work or deem it acceptable, plenty of others disagree with you.

The fact that YOU thought they looked like they were going clubbing straight after work rather confirms my point rather than refutes it, no?

I can’t think of any work uniform that includes a mini skirt - even Hooters staff wear shorts.

I tend to agree with this view. The societal expectations that females dress to attract the male gaze, which (I would assume consciously for some, and subconsciously for others) leads girls to wear their skirts very short. I too struggle with my thoughts when I see school girls who are essentially wearing belts, and bum cheeks can be seen - its a totally inappropriate way to dress, but I don't think policing skirt lengths is going to solve the issue, it just brings a whole load of other problems with singling out girls and saying what girls can and can't wear which is also inappropriate.

I wish skirts were not the norm for girls at school - they are much less practical in my opinion and I can't really understand why so few girls wear trousers. I also wish there were some solid efforts made to tackle societal expectations of girls and women, sexism and misogyny. This is what is needed, not herding girls into a group and publicly calling them out for too short skirts.

Nothing to with the patriarchy, keep your ire for causes that actually deserve it.

My daughter's school does a similar thing at the start of the school year. They are less strict as the year goes on. The difference is that girls with skirts deemed too short or tight are put into inclusion for the day and prevented from joining lessons. A letter home feels far more appropriate.

I did think maybe the Ball Boy & Girl uniform at Wimbledon might involve a short skirt but I just googled and it’s a skort.

Knee length is so much easier for the teachers to police. The trouble with ´no more than 3 inches above the knee’ or ´longer than fingertip length with your hands by your sides’ is that to check whether a skirt complies with these rules puts teachers in a crap position. No one wants to go back to the bad old days of teachers holding rulers up to girls’ legs to check whether the 3inches has been respected or not. Knee length is much easier to see at a glance from a good distance and there’s enough leeway that it doesn’t matter if you’re a bit lenient with the interpretation and only speak to the kids where the skirt is indisputably shorter than knee length - you can still skip the issue of skirts being so short that underwear is visible when climbing the stairs or sitting on a chair.

A balance can be struck but this issue is often polarising.

Skirts should be a certain length and this should be adhered to.

However, the school can't demand said skirt is bought from a specific shop, at a specific price. Factoring in growth spurts at that age, one girl I knew had to get three new skirts in one year as she shot up from average height in Y7 and just kept growing! If your teen becomes too tall for it to be the right length, you shouldnt have to spend £££ to replace - just from a supermarket should be allowed. They can't have it both ways.

The frogmarching and separation isn't really on either. Yes, ok girls roll their skirts up and have done for decades, but who knows what's going on at home that they haven't got a new skirt if they've genuinely grown too tall for it. It could be money, neglect or anything really, and they're being shamed for it.

I think uniform is a good lesson for the world of work though. OP, you might think women can wear what they want but they're there to 'work' - and even jeans/hoodies/trainers/too much skin showing aren't allowed in many workplaces.

I work in secondary schools. The skirts can be VERY short. Nobody really cares about knee length, but knee length is safe ground.

It is creepy for teachers to comment “your skirt is too short because I can see your bum”. Then teachers have then admitted to looking at her bum, and you can see the problem.

The policy of knee length leaves a bit of room for minor rebellion, and keeps the conversation comfortable for everyone. It is reasonable.