Policing women’s clothes or reasonable expectation?

[SorryAuntLydia]

I dropped my teens at school yesterday and instead of the usual 2 teachers at the gate, there were 10 (possibly more I couldn’t see). They were stopping all the girls and commenting on skirt length. Those whose were deemed too short (almost every year 10 and 11) were told to stand in a particular area of the playground where names were taken before they were allowed to go to class.

And subsequently the parents were sent an email about skirt length needing to be on or below the knee, failure to adhere means detention etc.

I am really uncomfortable about this.
On the one hand it’s the uniform policy so it’s what we signed up to.
On the other hand I couldn’t help but look at the girls being herded into a corner of the playground and feel uncomfortable. And I also think that skirt length should be personal choice for young women - it doesn’t impact their learning so why does it matter?

This is probably an aibu. But I need a feminist view on it, please.

Do you think it’s fair for me to complain? Either at the way in which this was done? Or that the uniform policy should be changed? I’m sure my imagination is being overly dramatic and don’t mean to offend, but it reminded me of the images of Iranian women being berated for being improperly veiled.
Please help me untangle my thoughts on this.

It's nothing like Iranian women, how insulting to them. Your DD can go out in a belt if she likes whenever she wants, just not in school where there is a policy. You agreed to the policy at the time and it's a reasonable one. There is a lot of pressure on young women to conform. Some will want to wear their skirt longer but not feel able to because all the other girls wear it short. Uniforms keep everyone the same with no peer pressure interfering. Perhaps the school should have measured in a classroom but then some parents would say why are they doing it in secret. This ensures parents know what's happening and why.

I really don’t mean to offend. But I’m my mind they both stem from the same patriarchal rules that say others are permitted to police women’s clothing.

I guess my questions stem from thinking that it’s unreasonable to stipulate skirt length within school policy because it doesn’t affect their learning. And that whilst we ‘signed up to it’ in theory, in practice all local schools have uniform policies but that doesn’t make them fair or right. It’s not a wealthy area so lots of kids wear eg tighter jumpers with short sleeves but no one is measuring arm length.

I can see your POV and it’s one that my DDs would agree with.

However, I’ve also seen what Givemepickles described in their PP. If you don’t wear your skirt short, according to my DDs, then you’re going to be seriously looked down on. There’s an awful lot of peer pressure you’d have to ignore.

Having a policy and enforcing it means that the ‘square’ kids can comply and not be (quite so often) picked on. If you have a uniform for a school then make it so, in the sense of imposing uniformity, otherwise just go for casual clothes… and watch how much of a social minefield THAT becomes.

They also did this at my DCs school. Where the school skirt costs £25 and is only available from one supplier, the boys trousers can be bought from a supermarket. The skirt only comes in one length per waist measurement, so if you are tall and skinny you have to chose between meeting the school on the knee length or it falling off at the waist - it's got an adjustable elastic waist button but no belt loops or anything. It's beyond archaic. In the last couple of years the girls have been allowed 'tailored' trousers but most of July and September's emails from school talk about the bloody skirts.

Then you hear about other schools where the girls are being policed for wearing leggings not trousers - or that boy in the Daily Mail last week with his prize winning mullet - and I'm very glad I'm not a teacher.

Your dd is going to have to cope with a working world where you can't wear whatever you want and your clothing choices need to fit dress codes and appropriacy to the situation. I wouldn't for example turn up to work with my cleavage on show or a skirt that just about covers my bum, particularly as my job often involves working with people from faiths and cultures where that would be offensive. I wouldn't turn up for work in jeans on a formal day and expect that my personal self expression is all that matters.

I don't care what people wear, males in skirts, yada yada. I do care that it's appropriate to the situation, which is respecting other people and the situation. That's the part getting lost in the 'don't police me, it's cool to abandon boundaries'. Baby and bathwater. Hence we now live in a world where the guy turning up to work as a teacher with false boobs to his waist and nipples on clear show, is wailing about don't step on my vibe.

there Is a lot of difference between having your bum on show and your skirt sitting on your knee. As someone who worked for many years at a senior corporate level, I never ever wore a skirt that came to my knees - suits some women, not me. I always wore trousers or shorter skirts. So I don’t buy the getting ready for the workplace argument.

The difference being a work place would find themselves in court if they herded up all the female staff and separated them based on their clothing. The issue is not the school uniform policy, it’s how they’re treating the girls in order to police it.

@SorryAuntLydia well we take very different views on this because I personally don't see young women dressing in short skirts as a middle finger to patriarchy and find it absolutely baffling that that's now considered a feminist view.

However, since you seem open to a discussion how about some questions. If it were up to you, where would your line be on what girls can wear to school? Can they wear crop tops and hot pants? Bikinis in hot weather? Nothing at all, if they want to? If not, why not? And if you do draw a line there, are you then part of the patriarchy policing girls bodies?

Uniform rules are uniform rules though 🤷‍♀️

Can girls wear trousers? If so, I’m guessing the girls in slacks got waved straight through? Same as boys? If so it’s skirts that are policed, rather than girls.

My DD goes to an all girls school with the same rules re skirt length, however, at her school girls regularly get sent home for wearing skirts too long and the wrong style (ankle length, not pleated) because wearing short pleated skirts just isn’t a trendy thing there (lots of the girls are Muslim).

I’m all for petitioning to change the rules, can’t see why our school can’t offer a uniform long skirt as well as the current choice of knee length skirt or trousers.

if your daughter objects to the school rule or the way it is enforced then encourage her to start a petition and get the rule changed to one that she and her cohort are happy to agree too. Or break the rule as an organised day of protest rather than try and slide past the rules daily.

You can’t wear a miniskirt at most jobs (nightclubs or goth shops excepted) but adults don’t tend to need that policing, especially not in this weather!

Now that’s a policy worth challenging - why can’t the girls wear the supermarket pleated skirt, same as the boys wear supermarket trousers?

Well I definitely don’t have all the answers, hence my posting. I think the policing is others defining if an item of clothing meets the school’s definition of acceptable rather than does the item fulfil its purpose iyswim. I guess the line I would draw is that a skirt is a skirt. If it doesn’t cover the bum, it’s a belt - so out of policy. And a bikini top etc isn’t on the uniform list so not even a consideration. Telling girls that their choice of skirt is wrong is designed to make them feel self-conscious at a sensitive age. And does nothing to enhance their learning.

Thank you. Yes maybe you are right.

Although I still don’t see what’s wrong with a short skirt. 🤷🏽‍♀️

Presumably they would have done the same with the boys, if the uniform specified long trousers but lots of them wore shorts.

Short skirts limit what girls can do in terms of running, stretching, bending (v long skirts also limit, though to a lesser.extent). They are a fashion choice and when children roll up their skirts at school they are deliberately pushing boundaries/trying to fit in. How schools tackle it is a different matter, but it would help of parents supported the policy.

I don't think there is an actual solution to this.

All of society agrees there has to be standards for decency and safety. So a line has to be drawn somewhere, and that line needs to be enforced. Doesn't matter if its a uniform or just a dress code.

But girls do seem to get the short stick. Trousers too tight, skirts too short, shorts too short...

With uniform there us the financial factor as well.... is it fair to punish a child if a parent can't instantly replace an item which is outgrown or damaged?

Well they are not primary school kids so they aren’t actually allowed to run around. And most of them wear shorts underneath.

As a feminist, teacher and a parent, skirt length should be addressed. When girls roll their skirts so short that they walk upstairs clutching their skirt hem in case people see up their skirt, they need a word.

That’s interesting. How do you address it?

In your experience, do you think it’s appropriate and productive to address it en masse in the playground? Genuine question. Part of me thinks it might feel ‘safer’ and less stigmatising when done together. So maybe our school has it right??

I think the key issue here is choice. You, and the other parents, chose to send your kids to school with this uniform policy.
If you do not like it, change schools or lobby for a change of the policy.

@Givemepickles it's an interesting question in a country that doesn't promote modesty. I would love to see an end to work place and school uniforms/dress codes. I would draw a line at a bikini's from a hygiene point of view however crop tops and cycling shorts in summer not a problem.

I work in a smart casual environment however I'm also expected to provide the same answer at home at 2am in my PJ's.

You're being ridiculous. They are enforcing a school uniform policy which you agreed to when they joined the school

They presumably do stretch, bend and (as PP mentioned) walk up stairs and even just walk. Suggesting that children should show their underwear as a solution is, in my view, bizarre. Plus girls don't want to show their underwear (even the shorts) and therefore limit their own movements or are constantly trying to adjust their clothes, which also limits them. Shorts are useful for girls who worry about circumstances such as gusts of wind or falling over.

Because then you'd have to police which pleated skirt from which supermarket? And also this girls uniform skirt specifies a coloured waistband, which was supposed to prevent the girls from rolling up their skirts as if their skirts weren't rolled up, then their waistbands would be visible. Obviously that worked for about 2 seconds before someone discovered how jumpers work.

Placing a policy decreases peer pressure to those girls not wanting or even dreading wearing short skirts who for many reasons have not learnt to use their voice.

At my upper school (13-18) girls had the choice of skirts or trousers, but ~95% of us chose trousers (which had fairly decent pockets). I wonder how many would choose trousers now.