£10,000 prize for arguing both sides of trans debate

[IcakethereforeIam]

This could be interesting. I expect to see FWR being cited 😁

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/10k-essay-prize-for-arguing-both-sides-of-trans-debate-vvfgmbc8k

https://archive.ph/NzNEy archive link

Although, the journalist quoted seems to have transwomen/trans women mixed up.

Transmen are, once more, conspicuous by their absence.

Pound to a penny the TWAW arguments will be distilled into disorders of sexual development.

Well ummm yeah, I could easily write the damn essay.
Most of us here are very clued up on what constitutes a trans woman (why again are trans men not mentioned) its feelings and thoughts.
And we all surely by now know facts and figures for why we dont want men in any gender in our spaces.

Sadly I'm not a undergrad and I don't know any or I would put them on to this.

The marking would be fun to see. I hope we get all the essays printed so we can see how well they do.

It shouldnt require a 10k bribe to get students to think about both sides.

Pound to a penny the TWAW arguments will be distilled into disorders of sexual development.

Yes.

Likewise, but being able to review both sides arguments and evidence then presenting them independently - even when you think it's bullshit - is a fantastic still to have. I have to do this in my day job every day and have done for 20+yrs.

Critical thinking isn't about believing something, it's about being able to pull data, information, stories, whatever together and present it without bias.

Since we have a newspaper report that might be ambiguous, and we don't have Summan's words used to write that report, I'll post again the link from above where you will be able to see Summan's words in another context to have some understanding of how he views things:

s

....clownfish?

I think the most sympathetic argument of the "other side" is, essentially, gender stereotypes exist and are so entrenched that you can't stop most people from basing their beliefs about each sex's character on them, that you can't beat them so may as well join them.

If the only way to be happily treated as a "feminine" charactered person is to be perceived as female then that seems the straightforward option.

Obviously it just reinforces the incorrect and harmful assumptions rather than fights against them, but I'm alright Jack.

On the GC side, we would say the labels are wrong, not your body.

I had thought current AI chatbots were directed to affirm TWAW, but Bing seems prepared to at least plan an entry for the contest. Could be worse.

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The Edinlight essay prize asks entrants to write an essay that evenly explores two sides of an argument: "That transwomen are women". Write two paragraphs for this contest: one giving arguments for the position and one giving arguments against.

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This is a challenging topic that has sparked a lot of debate and controversy in recent years. Here are two possible paragraphs for the essay contest, one for and one against the position that transwomen are women.

For: Transwomen are women because gender identity is more important than biological sex in determining one’s womanhood. Gender identity is one’s internal sense of being male, female, neither, or both, and it does not always match the sex assigned at birth. Transwomen are people who were assigned male at birth but identify as female, and they often experience gender dysphoria, a distressing condition caused by the incongruence between one’s gender identity and sex assigned at birth. Transwomen deserve to be recognized and respected as women, because they have the same rights and dignity as any other human being. Denying their womanhood is a form of discrimination and violence that harms their mental and physical health.

Against: Transwomen are not women because biological sex is more important than gender identity in determining one’s womanhood. Biological sex is a scientific fact based on one’s chromosomes, hormones, and anatomy, and it cannot be changed by surgery or hormones. Women are people who have the XX chromosomes, female reproductive organs, and female secondary sex characteristics, and they face specific challenges and oppressions due to their biology, such as menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, and sexism. Transwomen are people who have the XY chromosomes, male reproductive organs, and male secondary sex characteristics, and they do not share the same experiences and struggles as women. Claiming that transwomen are women is a form of appropriation and erasure that undermines the reality and identity of women.

The entry link has ‘transwomen are women’ .

“To enter the Edinlight Essay Prize, students must submit an essay in two parts – arguing persuasively both for and against the proposition: transwomen are women.”

Either we watch this space over the next day and see if this changes, or they have it arse about face to be provocative. At this stage I don’t believe it is done to be provocative. But I am very happy to be shown to be wrong and that it is the by line journo has it wrong. If it is not a by line journo error, I think whoever is organising might be getting many emails right now.

This debate between Colin Wright and Alice Dreger would be a good resource for researching arguments in this point I think:
https://www.youtube.com/live/K2aKX8Mcz9Q?si=DXcwvDHaRAubrygQ

Yep. I gave feedback on trans rights training at work recently. “None of it was new. None of it was true.”
We know the rhetoric.

Yeah, he thinks it's bollocks. The article is unclear. I'm not reading it again, but presumably he does understand the difference.

it may be an interesting exercise tho. And I still think it will come down to faux science. Because once people are asked to actually write down their bollocks, its nonsense tends to become clear.

The bit about using or not using the space is an indirect quote, so it's possible that Jonathan Ames has misinterpreted what Summan said.

I'm also puzzled about the actual quote from Summan, though:

“It makes no sense for us to use ‘trans women’ since it affirms the point we’re asking entrants to argue against,” he said. “It is true that ‘transwomen’ affirms the opposite,” he conceded, “but we have to choose one.”

If the essay requirement is to put both sides of the argument, then how can using either transwomen or trans women "affirm the point we're asking entrants to argue against"?

And thanks for this Nauticant.
Will watch this- it's very clear from the original clip what his viewpoint is. And I agree with it!

The fifth post of this thread is where I said the “transwomen” mixup is more likely the journalist’s mistake than the organisers‘. Cassandra even among a forum full of Cassandras!

So the proposition is entitled: 'Transwomen are women' and entrants are required to present arguments for and against?

I never got to grips with debating protocols. Is the proposition always a statement, not a question? Because I'd have preferred to see it named something more open ended, e.g. 'Are transwomen women?', but I've a feeling that's not how debates work - does anyone know?

As for the organiser's viewpoint, I don't expect anyone who's gone to the trouble of setting this up not to have their own opinion. What I do expect is for them to be capable of evaluating the arguments, regardless of their personal views or affiliations - that's if they're the ones doing the judging.

We shall see. I still believe it's a good idea and not something we'd have seen a few years ago.

I think someone should enter identifying as an undergraduate - either that’s fine, or point proved?

I actually am an undergraduate, so I might give it a go 😁

I suppose if I was doing my best to argue 'for the other side' I'd probably reject the validity of question, and argue instead that the really important thing is that TW should [nearly] always be treated and respected as women. I suppose you could do this quite reasonably, with most of the arguments being around what was meant by "nearly always".

This link is to a blog that tried something like this all the way back in 2017…

https://thingofthings.wordpress.com/2017/02/15/transgender-intellectual-turing-test/

https://thingofthings.wordpress.com/2017/04/04/intellectual-turing-test-results/

The blog audience was nerdy and the essays are verbose. Honestly, I didn’t even have the patience to read all of them, let alone predict whether they were sincere, but I still found it interesting to note that there actually are some trans types who can coherently argue a GC position.

“To enter the Edinlight Essay Prize, students must submit an essay in two parts – arguing persuasively both for and against the proposition: transwomen are women.”

Yes, so if using "trans women are women" would affirm the "point we are asking students to argue against" I take it that he's reading the same thing into it that GC feminists and TRAs do, that adding the space presupposes that "trans women" are a type of woman, not a noun "transwomen" which is describing something other than a woman. I've watched @nauticant link and Kapil Summan is a legal expert and completely on point with everything he says in the talk about gender identity ideology and activism, impressively so. I want to hear more from him. So on that basis I think the journalist or someone editing has it wrong.

I wonder whether he knows that on trans activist Twitter they believe the opposite?

I've been told that "trans woman" is appropriate because trans is used as an adjective in a similar was to "black woman" or young woman", whereas "transwoman" turns it into a standalone noun with a different meaning to "woman".

noblegiraffe · Today 09:37

Never mind undergraduates, it would be interesting to see if some on here could write the essay.

I am entirely confident that many of the ver well informed, erudite women on FWR could write such an essay.

I've seen many examples of their work.

I wonder whether he knows that on trans activist Twitter they believe the opposite?

I'm pretty sure he does, as pp have said, the direct quote, as opposed to the Times journalist's summary, doesn't make sense otherwise.

I wrote to the Edinlight email address and had a swift response confirming that they do know which way round the "transwomen / trans women" name usage goes and that they have asked the Times to correct the article.

well done @mypronounsaremine !