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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My 15 year old daughter is going to a sleepover tomorrow night....

87 replies

Kitkat2023 · 27/10/2023 19:07

....and out of 5 girls, 3 of them dress up as boys. My daughter is NOT one of them, but over the last 2 years, 3 of her friends have started the 'trans' fashion.
My daughter is all over it calling the girls 'they and them or he'.

We are starting to fall out over it because I just can't entertain it when she's calling them all their new names as I find it so ridiculous.

What the hell have they done to our children?

OP posts:
Guavafish1 · 28/10/2023 13:26

These are prescribed drugs

Jewelspun · 28/10/2023 13:31

I wouldn't let her go. Those children are suffering from a mental affliction which has been encouraged by their educators and indulged by their parents.

It's not a safe environment (mentally and emotionally) for your daughter to be involved in.

Catsanfan · 28/10/2023 13:34

Well, if all parties insist they are boys, I agree with other posters - say she can't go as there will be boys there

MuchuseasaChocolateTeapot · 28/10/2023 13:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I would much rather my child spent an evening in their house than in yours. Ignoramus

Prelapsarianhag · 28/10/2023 13:44

Don't put your ideology before your relationship with your DC.

dadoodoodoo · 28/10/2023 13:47

@ jewelspun again why do you assume parents “indulge” them? The smugness I some of these posts that if parents take a no-nonsense approach it will all just go away is staggering.

FrankieStein403 · 28/10/2023 14:07

I don't believe it's smugness - just trying to reassure op that this is a current 'thing'?

Teens have always picked up causes, I think it's a good thing - what did you/your peers think was the injustice of the time when you were a teen?

At one point DD experimented with binding - i dont think it was a desire to be a 'boy' as much as uncomfortableness with breasts. As it was mum explained issues in no uncertain terms and that stopped.

None of this is unusual for the current generation?

spookehtooth · 28/10/2023 14:08

Transparent2 · 27/10/2023 21:05

That is largely true, but boys are taught (though through a misunderstanding) that masculinity is toxic. I believe that for some more sensitive boys/men that this misunderstanding is part of the thinking that is behind their wish to be a woman. Both transmen and transwomen can be victims of stereotyping. Men can struggle with societal expectations too. I could say a lot more, but I don't want to derail the thread.

Agree, not relevant for the OP situation specifically but IMO very relevant for the issue that's led to it and not given enough consideration in the analysis. I'm only realising the overall impact on who I am in the middle ages of my life

BlurredEdges · 28/10/2023 14:17

Nokoolaidherethanks · 28/10/2023 13:01

Well exactly. Of course they're not. But social contagion is a well-known phenomenon among teenage girls. But although we're allowed to talk about it when it's self-harm or anorexia, when it's identifying as trans, we are required to go along with this and celebrate it because they are being "their authentic selves". My 15 year old also has a friendship group where at least half go by a different name and gender than what they were born with.

My daughter is 13 and it's also at least half of her friendship group (all female) who identify as non binary or trans.

Neither she nor I take it seriously or let it impact the friendships in any way.

Of course, if it was a boy identifying as a girl at the sleepover, that would be a hard no, but really they all seem to know the difference perfectly well.

0rch · 28/10/2023 14:50

My child is trans. Well non binary. I'm so sad to think her friends parents would say they aren't allowed on a sleepover with them. I don't believe in it either but I show them respect and kindness so that our relationship remains as good as it is.
There is no need to be so horrible about trans kids.

Also she hasn't been abused or traumatised. She is autistic.

MrsTerryPratchett · 28/10/2023 15:04

0rch · 28/10/2023 14:50

My child is trans. Well non binary. I'm so sad to think her friends parents would say they aren't allowed on a sleepover with them. I don't believe in it either but I show them respect and kindness so that our relationship remains as good as it is.
There is no need to be so horrible about trans kids.

Also she hasn't been abused or traumatised. She is autistic.

Do you allow mixed sex sleepovers after puberty, into teenage? I don't, I think it's a safeguarding issue. I have no issue with a sleepover with all girls. But if DD says, "me, Chris, Fred and George are having a sleepover" and uses they and he. And insists they and he aren't girls... what then? Even though I know they have vaginas, what happens to the rule? IRL I've known her friends long enough and boy are currently repulsive so there's no issue in my house. But sex actually matters.

Woman2023 · 28/10/2023 15:20

"My child is trans. Well non binary.
... She is autistic."

Your daughter's chosen identity mean other parents struggle to enforce basic safeguarding. They can only make sensible decisions if they know she is actually a girl.

It would be much kinder if everyone continues to acknowledge her sex alongside whatever gender neutral pronouns and name she wants.

Pretending she is neither male nor female is just nonsense that doesn't help her or any other girls.

Woman2023 · 28/10/2023 15:22

I was going to say it doesn't help anyone to pretend but it does, it helps predators who want to blur boundaries and lower barriers to abuse.

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2023 15:29

0rch · 28/10/2023 14:50

My child is trans. Well non binary. I'm so sad to think her friends parents would say they aren't allowed on a sleepover with them. I don't believe in it either but I show them respect and kindness so that our relationship remains as good as it is.
There is no need to be so horrible about trans kids.

Also she hasn't been abused or traumatised. She is autistic.

Oh the irony.

They. Are. Autistic.

"It's ok they are trans and they are safe cos they haven't been abused."

This doesn't mean there isn't an issue...

Jesus.

0rch · 28/10/2023 15:30

@RedToothBrush I don't understand your comment

0rch · 28/10/2023 15:32

Woman2023 · 28/10/2023 15:22

I was going to say it doesn't help anyone to pretend but it does, it helps predators who want to blur boundaries and lower barriers to abuse.

So I should tell her she is talking bollocks? Do you think she will come to me with any issues ever again if I do that? No she won't. So I pretend.

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2023 15:33

Yes you should tell her she's talking bollocks!!! Cos she's vulnerable.

This will be the third time I've posted the following this week.

Posted the following on another thread this morning, but it feels more appropriate here. It is worse when considering in the context of actively giving this information to autistic children:

I'm just reading DeTrans by Dr AZ Hakeem and its fascinating to read back comments here about an inability to understand the world in certain ways displayed by a lot of trans people because of the huge correlation with autism.

The way he describes it, it sounds a lot like its almost a social communication version of not developing the concept of object permanence. Object permanence is understanding that an object still exists even if you can't see it - think babies who get very excited at peek a boo because they don't grasp that you are still there the whole time.

Instead he says that trans people with autism lack a 'theory of mind' - the inability to really discern what another person with who they are interacting is thinking combined with black and white thinking - which leads to them living by rules which they decide to be right and expect others to see the world as they do, and if others don't follow their own rules they get very upset and think everyone else is wrong.

This taken to the extreme means that they have very black and white ideas of what males and females should look like and how they should behave and divide the world up in this way. They then decide that because they like or do things for the opposite sex they therefore ARE the other sex. And everyone else sees the world in the same way. A bit like a baby who thinks cos they can't see an object, it no longs exists and that no one else can see it either.

He proposes that this goes as far as thinking that once they are 'presenting' as the opposite sex by these stereotypes they pass and because they haven't got the concept of the rest of the world thinking differently, they believe that everyone else sees them as the opposite sex simply because they've put on the corresponding clothing regardless of the other glaringly obvious clues to sex.

In their heads it IS all about them and what they think. If they think that putting on make up makes them look female then every one else will perceive them in the same way. Regardless of all the other things that mark their sex being obvious.

Its just about how they organise the world - so affirmation is probably just about the worst thing you can do, rather than unpick this and teach that things are not gendered. If this is all true, to affirm at all in a medical capacity isn't just irresponsible its actively grossly negligent and discriminatory.

The fact we have numerous posters who can not conceive that sex discrimination relates to biological function they don't have and will affect everything from the design of things to impact on everyday life rather than presentation and stereotypes, really really highlights the point. We've seen so many examples all saying and doing the same thing. Its fascinating to see in real world play outs.

We CAN NOT order the world along these lines because it doesn't reflect reality and how the world works - it only reflects the beliefs of people who can't see things from the perspective of others.

By definition this is about as far removed from being inclusive as it is possible to be.

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2023 15:34

You should NOT affirm autistic kids blindly.

FarEast · 28/10/2023 15:38

these lovely young women & girls caught up in a social contagion because nobody's felt able to stop all the trans lobbyists from targeting schools, children's homes, youth services, sport (basically anywhere that children gather) and gaslighting them into believing their bodies are flawed and that drugs and surgery can fix them.

Yes @MrsOvertonsWindow it makes me want to weep.

All these young girls thinking that being female is something to be 'fixed' or erased.

And what I think about the parents that cheerlead this is unspeakable ... (I have a trans young person in my family, and I can hardly face their mother who I think has a version of Munchausen's by proxy).

Woman2023 · 28/10/2023 15:39

You gently discuss the importance of sex being acknowledged. You point out that everyone is either male or female. You point out that gender stereotypes are just that and she doesn't have to follow them.

You gently correct her just as you would if she announced that she believed a diet of only fruit was healthy.

You point out that other parents want to know the sex of the children who are having a sleepover, for example, so acknowledging her sex in life is something that cannot be pretended away.

0rch · 28/10/2023 15:44

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2023 15:33

Yes you should tell her she's talking bollocks!!! Cos she's vulnerable.

This will be the third time I've posted the following this week.

Posted the following on another thread this morning, but it feels more appropriate here. It is worse when considering in the context of actively giving this information to autistic children:

I'm just reading DeTrans by Dr AZ Hakeem and its fascinating to read back comments here about an inability to understand the world in certain ways displayed by a lot of trans people because of the huge correlation with autism.

The way he describes it, it sounds a lot like its almost a social communication version of not developing the concept of object permanence. Object permanence is understanding that an object still exists even if you can't see it - think babies who get very excited at peek a boo because they don't grasp that you are still there the whole time.

Instead he says that trans people with autism lack a 'theory of mind' - the inability to really discern what another person with who they are interacting is thinking combined with black and white thinking - which leads to them living by rules which they decide to be right and expect others to see the world as they do, and if others don't follow their own rules they get very upset and think everyone else is wrong.

This taken to the extreme means that they have very black and white ideas of what males and females should look like and how they should behave and divide the world up in this way. They then decide that because they like or do things for the opposite sex they therefore ARE the other sex. And everyone else sees the world in the same way. A bit like a baby who thinks cos they can't see an object, it no longs exists and that no one else can see it either.

He proposes that this goes as far as thinking that once they are 'presenting' as the opposite sex by these stereotypes they pass and because they haven't got the concept of the rest of the world thinking differently, they believe that everyone else sees them as the opposite sex simply because they've put on the corresponding clothing regardless of the other glaringly obvious clues to sex.

In their heads it IS all about them and what they think. If they think that putting on make up makes them look female then every one else will perceive them in the same way. Regardless of all the other things that mark their sex being obvious.

Its just about how they organise the world - so affirmation is probably just about the worst thing you can do, rather than unpick this and teach that things are not gendered. If this is all true, to affirm at all in a medical capacity isn't just irresponsible its actively grossly negligent and discriminatory.

The fact we have numerous posters who can not conceive that sex discrimination relates to biological function they don't have and will affect everything from the design of things to impact on everyday life rather than presentation and stereotypes, really really highlights the point. We've seen so many examples all saying and doing the same thing. Its fascinating to see in real world play outs.

We CAN NOT order the world along these lines because it doesn't reflect reality and how the world works - it only reflects the beliefs of people who can't see things from the perspective of others.

By definition this is about as far removed from being inclusive as it is possible to be.

Okay thanks

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2023 15:50

I despair at seeing parents going 'my kid is trans and this is allllll finnnnneeeee' then say they are autistic as if it's nothing when there is such a huge correlation going on.

Gender stereotypes are a MASSIVE issue in all this. And autistic kids are being harmed because no one is bothering to check if they properly understand that it's ok to be female and do 'masculine things' etc etc.

0rch · 28/10/2023 15:55

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2023 15:50

I despair at seeing parents going 'my kid is trans and this is allllll finnnnneeeee' then say they are autistic as if it's nothing when there is such a huge correlation going on.

Gender stereotypes are a MASSIVE issue in all this. And autistic kids are being harmed because no one is bothering to check if they properly understand that it's ok to be female and do 'masculine things' etc etc.

My child is not unintelligent. She knows what stereotypes are. She is 16 . I have short hair, work in IT and ride a motorcycle. She knows I'm a woman and can do whatever I like.
We have talked about it all. She doesn't think she is a boy. Just nonbinary.

RedToothBrush · 28/10/2023 16:02

0rch · 28/10/2023 15:55

My child is not unintelligent. She knows what stereotypes are. She is 16 . I have short hair, work in IT and ride a motorcycle. She knows I'm a woman and can do whatever I like.
We have talked about it all. She doesn't think she is a boy. Just nonbinary.

It's not about being 'unintelligent'.

Christ almighty.

These kids are fucked.

Woman2023 · 28/10/2023 16:02

"doesn't think she is a boy. Just nonbinary."

Can you explain what she means by thinking she is nonbinary?