Butches against transpohobia

[Catsanfan]

I saw a woman wearing a T shirt saying 'Butches against transphobia' today. It astounds me that some lesbians would think that way. I wonder what she would do if presented with a penis on a date?

Queer' has not been a slur for about half a century, if not longer.

Complete nonsense. I'm not half a century old, and it was very much a slur when I was young and many people consider it so still. How old are you?

Agree - plenty of gay people hate the term 'queer' as it means just about bloody anything these days

It was my comment.

Lesbians are not in my experience interested in a penis, however feminine the wrapping.

Bisexual women, that is women attracted to biological sex, are unlikely to be interested either because in seeking a partner of either sex, they will be seeking the actual sex, not the appearance of gender.

There may be people who aren't bothered either way, and thus will be happy to have sex irrespective. But they aren't lesbian or bisexual as I understand it.

This is all bullshit isn't it? It's just that some people matter and some don't. It's colonialism.

This. But it's all put in twee, mealy mouthed "I'm sooooo progressive" language.

I am forty. I have never heard it used as a slur. Homophobic slurs when I grew up were 'poof', 'faggot' and 'dyke' for a lesbian. Not 'queer'.

Talking over lesbians and women & dismissing our lived experience is quite a thing on this board at the moment.

It means you are a tall woman. I'm six feet tall and I reject this label

I'm older than you love. I remember it well thanks. So do many of the other homosexuals you bright young things have booted out of the groups we founded.

#bekind

It's as cold and ugly as the words they used to write on the workhouse wall isn't it? God Is Love as people were beaten and starved. By their betters of course, who were enlightened and knew best. 'It's for your own good' was a frequently heard line.

With respect, you're not a lesbian, and lesbians here are telling you they have had it used as a slur. Never heard of 'queer bashing'?

I have heard it used as a slur. Perhaps as it's normally used about gay men and lesbians, it's not actually your experience to pronounce judgment on as a "pan" woman?

Ah OK, I'm relatively tall too, guess I am queer

I'm just sitting here waitin for someone to tell me what's 'feminine'.

Plus ca change.

Are you a gay man or lesbian? Because in the two large cities I've lived in since coming out, queer most definitely was a slur. It is one of those homophobic words that some (mainly gay men initially) decided to reclaim with the recent appropriation by the rainbow straight folk

@ArabellaScott Moi aussi

Good luck with that Arabella.

I don't trust the rainbow straight folk. They have ruined nightclubs, nights out and endless, endless politicking for their own agenda. I don't actually want you in the same place as me, let alone being an ally.

Dumb old me @ArabellaScott it means wearing a dress. That's all. Unless @JaneGainsborough can come up something better?

Disclaimer: Fuck me, I am wearing trousers. I suppose I am now a man?

#bekind

It's as cold and ugly as the words they used to write on the workhouse wall isn't it? God Is Love as people were beaten and starved. By their betters of course, who were enlightened and knew best. 'It's for your own good' was a frequently heard line.

I can't believe these people don't have the self awareness to realise what they are doing. The misogyny, the sexism, the homophobia. Not the deranged TRAs, the many "I'm such a nice and inclusive soul" hangers on.

Are you sitting in the "in what way is JKR transphobic?" chair? I quite like the idea of different chairs for different waiting reasons.

She can line up both chairs on the hill. It's the same one, after all.

@JaneGainsborough I would also really like to come back to your point about femininity.

I'm going to describe three people:

Jill

• was born male
• has gender dysphoria
• takes female sex hormones
• has had a breast construction, a penectomy and a vaginoplasty
• is exclusively attracted to people who were born female
• has had all body hair below the eyebrows removed using laser surgery
• has long hair
• wears push up bras, dresses and high heels every day
• wears makeup and nail varnish every day
• enjoys shopping as a leisure activity
• does ballet
• drinks pornstar martinis
• works in publishing
• is a cat person

Jane

• was born female
• does not have gender dysphoria
• takes no medication, not even the contraceptive pill
• has never had any kind of surgery
• is exclusively sexually attracted to men
• doesn't remove any body hair except on her head
• is currently sporting a buzz cut on her head
• never wears a bra
• wears jeans and trainers every day and doesn't own a dress or a pair of heels
• never wears makeup or nail varnish
• enjoys playing Fifa as a leisure activity
• does martial arts
• drinks beer
• works on a construction site
• is a dog person
• has given birth to two children

Ken

• he's just Ken

(lol, I couldn't be bothered to describe Ken, just imagine literally any man)

What do Jill and Jane have in common with each other that they do not have in common with Ken?

Good point, Eresh. She can put her feet up then!

I'm very pro women being that I am a woman. What's shakier is the 'pro-reality, anti-transphobic' line

Ok, so what we're seeing now is people saying the term 'lesbian' shouldn't be used by anyone who doesn't fit their narrow criteria of what lesbian entails, and people also shouldn't use queer, as this word is offensive to some.

Who is doing the policing of language, exactly?

It's taking me back to those gold star lesbian debates!

Lets look at this another way, what do the countries that have performed best for women have to say on this matter? Are they obsessed with strict dictionary definitions, or have they gone down a different route, allowing easier self-ID for their citizens?

In fact, the 4 countries in the world that are doing the best for women in improving equality for women and closing the gender gap have all moved to more relaxed policies of gender self-ID. This is from the global gender gap index, a report that is cited by governments, health organisations and women's groups internationally. They have also remained in those top 4 positions in the last years and have not dropped down, despite their introduction of these policies.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/244387/the-global-gender-gap-index/#:~:text=The%20global%20gender%20gap%20index%202023&text=The%20global%20gender%20gap%20index%20benchmarks%20national%20gender%20gaps%20on,with%20a%20score%20of%200.91.

https://www.weforum.org/reports/global-gender-gap-report-2023/

So it would seem that doing well for women is not incompatible with the approaches they have taken for gender self ID and more relaxed attitudes to definitions.