Anyone in the middle?

[piesforever]

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

I agree with this.

I also just thinking in terms of single sex spaces is missing a big point. The obvious solution to that would be separate spaces for trans people. Or more single occupancy spaces.

But that wouldnt solve the real problem - men wanting society to ignore their sex.

Adults now may understand that when we say TWAW its with a bit of a wink. As in we know they arent women, but lets pretend they are in certain situations. The problem is that we arent duscussing where the line is, and how we explain that line to children.

Its really important that a child can raise the alarm when a man is somewhere or doing something he shouldnt be. If we are making misgendering socially unacceptable, we are making it impossible for children to raise the alarm and be protected.

I think this is why TRA want to concentrate the discussion around public loos - theres an obvious solution and no one is taking about the real one.

I think most people start somewhere in the middle. It's the indoctrination of children that pushed me to gender atheism though.
If you don't think it's happening, check out this document from NHS Children and Young people's mental health services.
https://twitter.com/matildagosling/status/1714315060544250250?t=pxRQx-g8ihQptAwV-coCOw&s=19

Can you post a link? Super interested but my phone's playing up and I can't find it!

It's here https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/AMA/4920152-hello-im-a-tra-ask-me-anything?page=1 it would be nice if anyone going over there kept the tone friendly as the OP has been polite and thoughtful throughout.

Edited because I’ve buggered up the quote function (could be the gin). But I totally agree with this too.

Tysm, and of course!
Honestly I'm just really happy anyone is willing to speak at all on this from the trans side and I really appreciate Alpha taking the time to do this! <3

Really alpha has not been polite and thoughtful. Alpha's smeared women with offensive stereotypes, downplayed male advantage and reduced structural inequalities to low self esteem. Alpha's not been name calling but there is nothing polite about the way Alphas's slurring women.

There is no such thing as 'presenting as female' and toilets are segregated by sex not gender. I'm managed over 50 years sharing loos with people I don't share an identity with (other women). It's not actually a big deal.

That is one view.

I prefer the view that Alpha is maybe so entrenched in the belief of stereotypes that have never been challenged. I think in this instance you catch more flies with honey than <whatever the other option is>.

I love an analogy, and this one’s perfect. I’m seeing a very dear (and highly intelligent) TWAW friend soon and I hope this will help us disagree agreeably. Thank you.

Middle ground? women don't need it. TRAs are welcome to fight to get them, set them up and use them.

I may consider using their preferred pronouns when they stop calling me "cis".

They can get out of women's sports unless they are biological women. Anything else? off to the men's / open category with you.

Most people, most women included i dare say, have no issue with trans people as long as we are not constantly being excluded from our own spaces and being made to budge up to accommodate men.

There's a Trans woman AMA at the moment. It is... enlightening.

forgot the link. Hang on to your hats: it is Choc a bloc full of outdated, harmful sexist stereotypes.

Hello, I'm a TRA - ask me anything | Mumsnet

I won't use cross Sex preferred pronouns for anyone (unless I'm genuinely fooled about their sex) because I can't, in all conscience, lie about what I see. There's too much at stake.

I disagree.

Until about five minutes ago, "woman" meant "biologically female person" and "man" meant "biologically male person" and nobody was trying to claim otherwise. As far as most of us are concerned this is still what these words mean.

But because a small group of male people now insist on being called "women" and even in some cases "female", we biological women no longer have a word to describe ourselves.

There is no word we can use to describe ourselves that some biologically male people aren't also using to describe themselves.

Do you really think that is OK?

Is there any particular reason why you feel you need to call your identity "woman"?

I don't know what you are identifying with but I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with women.

As for "demeaning and embarrassing", it's clear that we're back to feelings. Fair play to you, you say you're not using women's spaces. But many trans women are and they don't seem to care about the women who feel very strongly that they shouldn't be there.

Why should trans women's feelings matter more than women's?

I also don't see why the presence of urinals is an issue when you could pee in a cubicle in the men's just as easily as in the women's.

Theres no reason to have spaces by gender identity, even if there are situations where men could identity as a woman, it wouldnt be in public toilets. The 'woman' sign couldnt mean anything else but female people.

@Brefugee @literalviolence

Can you see no good in what @AlphaTransWoman is trying to do though by having the conversation? And would constructive engagement from feminists like yourselves not be better, to try to dissemble any assumptions or positions that you regard as sexist in the AMA posts?

I do understand your positions, and respect them, and learn a lot from them, but listening to @AlphaTransWoman also helps me to see the TRA perspective too (even if I don't think all of the positions on accessing woman's spaces are correct).

My loose point, I guess, is that don't we make more progress from Jaw, Jaw, Jaw, over War, War, War?

Men and women are human Sex classifications
Women are adult human females
No male is a woman

Just to clarify. I'm not saying you have to agree of course or give up red lines. I'm just saying talking is the only way ever to find common ground, no matter how sparse.

Yes I can see for ATW that using a men’s toilet when dressed in stereotypically women’s clothing etc. is difficult (for ATW and everyone else). But that’s not a problem for women to solve. Expecting us to is once again playing to the age old sexist stereotypes of women budging up and putting everyone before themselves.

Is it really difficult though?

Have there been any instances of trans women being attacked when using men's toilets?

How does opening up female facilities to any male who claims a womanly essence keep transwomen safe?

( I put it I those terms as I know the tra's don't give a shit about actual women's safety)

It is disingenuous claptrap. Did you even read that 40 page frustration?
It boils down to Alpha thinks girlies are lovely and nice and soft and squishy with lovely hair and silky clothes that feel nice. We have no self esteem (and need women's awards because of this) and we aren't competitive and all the other sexist bollocks that I've been raging against for at least 40 years.

Alpha starts all "well i don't like to use woman's spaces" but here, upthread, said sure they'd go to a toilet for women because he thinks of himself as a woman.

Alpha, to be fair, clearly has very very deep seated issues that need a lot of therapy. That is all.

First of all, if the sign on the door just says "men" or "women", without specifying biological sex, then I should use the women's. Because that's what the sign says I should do, since I identify as a woman.

So maybe they should be labelled "Big Gametes" and "Small Gametes"?

@IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism is it a problem for society to resolve though, without trampling on women? The problem with your position is that if woman refuse to debate or find a solution, then the "solutions" are imposed on them. I think that would be worse. Than you for debating this though! And Happy Friday!

also i absolutely take issue with the impression you are giving that i (and others) have been anything other than unflinchingly open to what Alpha has been wittering on about saying

it was an AMA that didn't answer the really big questions. Talked down to us. Dismissed the issues and problems women have faced since the year dot as "meh but i feel all soft and fluffy so I'm one of you"

I have put my time in. I have been on marches, fundraising etc etc. I have had absolutely enough of people telling me to be kind and budge up. Nope.

I think I'm going to put tanks and AK47s on my bright pink nails this week. Inspired by being told women are soft and non competitive.