Anyone in the middle?

[piesforever]

All I see on here is GC rants. I am in the middle, I support trans people but do agree they shouldn't take part in gender specific sport, and there needs to be more caution in "changing gender" for sure, especially hormones and surgery for young people. I do agree some are troubled or young people, who are hating puberty or have had some trauma. Let's support them overall though, it must be horrible whatever the outcome. Anyone else feel a bit of sympathy to both "sides"? In fact, why are there sides, we need to find common ground and help each other!! Instead of being furious all the time. It's not healthy.

Early on in all this (early for me- about 2016), I used to follow videos on youtube by someone called Maya, who had had full surgery (mtf) at about age 19 (was about 50 at time of following).
Maya was appallled and furious about youth transition and vividly confessional about their experience and the reality of surgery and post surgery.
Maya has since detransitioned and his channel is now called 'Call me Sam' (he interviews Corinna Cohn and Miranda Yardley too I think. Although he asked for his interview with Benjamin Boyce to be taken down as it was too painful).
Maya/Sam talked in depth about the early trauma that caused him to want to escape masculinity, and the desire to embody the feminine (and protective mother archetype, it seemed to me) that had been missing in his life- and that represented safety. I can see echoes of some of what Alpha has said here- but I also see a contrast. Maya/Sam is deeply self- reflective and questioning, seeing masculine and feminine through a complex philosophical/psychoanlytic lens rather than simplistic stereotypes, as well as reviewing his experience of transition and detransition as a personal, and spiritual process. Completely non-performative. He took himself off to live alone in the wilds of Scotland for years with just his dog for company.
Sadly, Sam has taken down all the original Maya videos as they were fascinating, informative, and deeply human.
(I think he struggled with being drawn too much into the political, when he knew he had to focus on his personal conflict)
Those early videos were also one of the sources that most helped me solve my cognitive dissonance around this topic. (The 'why am I, a supporter of the underdog/otherwise compassionate person- so disturbed by, and resistant to this idea of trans children?' Inner conflict. The wider, feminist awakening came after this for me. That area was my portal!)

I'd love to know if anyone else saw these at the time?

It sounds like the film 'Regretters' might be of a similar ilk Bonfirelady?

I think it was a very rude and personal question from Nigella. I don't think she kindly questioned at all. I remember it at the time.

The structured/unstructured clothes thing is such a red herring. In my father's later years he wore elastic waist trousers (some kind of exercise wear, not tracksuits - they looked like regular pants) in a microfibre fabric, a cotton turtlenecked shirt under a fleece jacket or vest depending on the weather.

All soft, none restrictive, all easy to get in and out of, in a range of colours, none of them looking like 'women's clothes' - though a woman could have worn the exact same things without looking mannish. Starfleet uniform for the present day.

The footage from Sam's time as Maya sounds like it would have been fascinating to watch.
Yes, it does sound similar to Regretters but with a deeper introspection beyond "the self" in to what's behind the stereotypes. The conversation in Regretters explored sex-based stereotypes but didn't try and unpick them.

Yes, exactly. ' A deeper reflection beyond the Self' describes it perfectly. A rare thing.
I'll still watch Regretters. Thank you.

I don't think these men are going to be reliable narrators. If the end point is to accept men as women, or to push the boundary about what is worn in public, they arent going to admit to any sexual motive. Not to therapists, the public or probably themselves.

If these men didnt want to be seen as women, the soultion to their problem wouldn't be to dress as a woman. It would be strange to go to a therapist about the trauma of losing a parent and the therapist suggesting dressing as the parent. Theres simplier ways to avoid denim than dress as a woman.

Im dubious about the feeling to feminine/masculine to be a man/woman. If that were the case, wouldnt women with gender be dominating TRA, not the men? The supposedly feminine men are pushing themselves into the limelight and sport, the supposedly masculine women are quietly changing policy so that midwifes dont mention their vigina in antenatal checkups.

I don't think these men are going to be reliable narrators.

THIS. With a million bells on.

School uniforms are not the nicest for anyone.

I’ve always been small and flat chested so shirts weren’t particularly a problem but they looked a nightmare for girl’s with large boobs. I don’t know how you get a smart fitting one.

I was at school in the 80s- we all had to wear ties. Girls had to wear a skirt. When I was in the 5th year the school changed policy so girls could start wearing trousers. You were allowed to ditch the tie if you continued to wear a skirt which all felt a bit like the school begrudged letting girls wear trousers and wanted to encourage us to stay in skirts (so the German teacher could keep looking up them?)

I understand there’s still some schools where girls aren’t allowed trousers, but I may be wrong. I’m only going on what I see here.

Nowadays most of the women I see out and about (not at work) are in leggings or sweat pants.

Agreed.

It's not entirely unexpected that these men seem to see women as a resource from A to bloody Z.

Whether they expect women to provide them with something, or validating them in performing the stereotypes them self.

Blanchard claims that the reasons for transitioning were similar for both cohorts.

HSTS transition to find love, because they believe they're unlovable as gay men. And also didn't want a relationship with a gay man themself. Anecdotally, this homophobia often stems from the father.

And the other cohort transition, because they are becoming the thing they love. Or rather, fancy.

Either way, women are being used. It's got nothing to do with the actual reality of women.

It's the idea that the very concept of womanhood can be repurposed to serve men. In order for them to get what they want.

And I hardly think they're going to admit that. Especially as most of them don't even realise they're doing it. Actual women are irrelevant.

Like the fish not realising the water is wet:

I don't think these men are going to be reliable narrators.

I suspect that it takes some pretty heavy siloing to not recognise that a person declaring how much they love the texture of what is seen as women's clothing does not then have a high chance of finding dressing as a woman and being seen was a woman sexually stimulating.

I think that there are many realistic reasons that the very same person would also recognise that they should not enter female single sex spaces. But internal and external factors.

Just like it is not beyond easy logic to understand that women get used as resources by male people at times on these threads for a mulitude of purposes. Particularly if they have already declared that they seek attention and love feeling 'cared for'.

You'd also have to notice the absolute lack of response to or consideration for women explaining where posts and views are offensive to them. Particularly in the context of constant appeals for sympathy and care re those women causing offense.

When someone does this, repeatedly, either they are not able to read and understand other people's needs due to their total focus on their own, or they are getting their needs met by repeatedly breaking those boundaries.

The whole thing's a nonsense. It's not like men can't wear silk shirts.

Women's clothing is known for its restrictive nature. Not the other way around!!

And if you're buying scratchy things like nylon underwear, you might just be frequenting the wrong sort of shop.

"I suspect that it takes some pretty heavy siloing to not recognise that a person declaring how much they love the texture of what is seen as women's clothing does not then have a high chance of finding dressing as a woman and being seen was a woman sexually stimulating"

Indeed.

Both myself and my daughter are Autistic. We both live in hoodies.. All of her female ND friends also do. They also wear trousers at school. It's a very common theme among ND girls and a well known sensory issue in the ND community. In fact, we often shun things that are too soft. DD would not wear tights as a younger child like the other girls did. As a child of the 70s and 80s, I wore trousers to school which was not actually allowed, but the school had to suck it up at the time as I was adamant (undiagnosed at this point)

Either way, women are being used. It's got nothing to do with the actual reality of women.

It's the idea that the very concept of womanhood can be repurposed to serve men. In order for them to get what they want.

And I hardly think they're going to admit that. Especially as most of them don't even realise they're doing it. Actual women are irrelevant.

Yes, exactly!

I don't think these men are going to be reliable narrators.

I'd suggest that this is going to depend heavily on what someone wants out of the experience of listening to them. I watched Regretters to understand the viewpoint of two men who explored their thoughts about having previously identified as women and what led to their thoughts changing. I was interested in why they felt they were women and then why they came to believe that they weren't.

I would absolutely agree that this would never provide in depth, informed discussion about the expectations and limitations that women face but I found them to be very good narrators of their own experience. Which is what I was looking for.

My seeking to understand still doesn't change my mind about boundaries though. Instead it's linked to me seeking to inform myself about why some people have a belief in a (female in this case) gender identity.

I'm interested in the rights of women and girls. I don't have time to indulge these males or listen to their unconvincing tales of how they are "women" because they fixate on sex stereotypes.

Fair enough 😁

I'm looking at it from the angle that I want to understand as much of it as I can so that I can support my daughter.
As this is the only naughty corner of the internet where these discussions are possible, I find it really helpful to explore different aspects like this (and a "middle ground" thread a place to do so). It still centres back on the hardline no in boundary crossing, regardless.

Comments on this board over the last few days seem to indicate that for some men, gender belief is about framing women as weak, not really adult, needing men to protect them, without agency of their own. There's a wish for women to dress in ways that mark out those qualities, and for us to act according to those stereotypes. Some of the men want an option of playing out a fancy dress version of 'woman' themselves so they can share those qualities. When it suits them.

If the reverse of that is young women imagining that in order to be strong, adult, independent, self-protective, and with agency, they need to act as 'men' - then they need to be shown and told that that isn't true. We are women, we are strong, we can do anything, and if the price of freedom is perpetual vigilance then so be it.

There's a bit of "the grass is greener" , a boy who had never experienced the discomforts of girls' school uniform and the restrictions of other girls' clothes would have no idea. That's a fantasy really.

DD would not wear tights as a younger child like the other girls did. As a child of the 70s and 80s, I wore trousers to school which was not actually allowed, but the school had to suck it up at the time as I was adamant (undiagnosed at this point)

I remember the horrors of woolly tights on a cold day at primary school! And in secondary the thin tights that didn't keep anyone warm. Trousers weren't allowed in 60s and 70s schools, I wore them at home and thought they could only be an improvement.

I'm very interested in what leads trans woman to conclude they are women, or to want to claim they are.

FWIW I am sure there are many reasons.

The male/female sexual split, and on top of it the cultural split, is so deeply baked into our psyche and culture that it's going to turn up as a human subconscious vehicle /metaphor/ expression / shorthand all over the place. Some expressions of male "womanhood" are just misguided and unwittingly misogynistic. Some are malicious and deliberately, knowingly, gleefully and wholeheartedly misogynistic.

I don't think trans women are women, or sort-of-women, or anything that gives them more claim to women-only resources or the female political voice than any other male. So I don't think whatever problems their trans identity brings them are women's problem to solve.

Hiwever I do think they are society's problem to solve and society includes women. I think some women being prepared to solve it with them will bring benefits to women as well if it's done the right way.

Crucially, that does not mean a solution of "middle ground" where women give up a bit so trans identifying male people can take a bit. That's not a solution, that's just baking in the incorrect association between these male people and womanhood.

What is should mean is understanding what real feelings and beliefs and experiences this "womanhood" is being a metaphor for, and understanding how society should handle that. Sometimea the solution might be to acknowledge and support something as valid and valued in men. Sometimes it might be to allow more men to express fear and find new ways to make people feel physically safe. It might be to open up social and even sexual roles that men feel they can't express. Sometimes it will mean recognising a malignant aspect and criminalising or otherwise controlling it. But above all, it will mean seeing what's really there behind this mask they want to wear of "woman".

The benefit to women is that untangling these cultural meanings loaded onto womanhood frees us from them as well. And that's why we need to be part of it, to make sure we are there to say "this idea of womanhood isn't true, you'll need to dig deeper" and to help shape solutions that move us away from genderised personalities not deeper into them.

Hm.

I'd actually argue for some men, this is about role playing that framing of women to have the experience of 'being weak' and 'not really adult' and being treated in ways they don't feel they are treated and would like to be. I'm not going into the pay off for them in role playing this, I really don't want to know.

They are not framing actual women this way, and certainly not talking to them in that way. They in fact are framing actual women as the eternal mummy. A walking service unit, with no feelings or needs or life of her own, just there to pick up any toddler with an open mouth and a howl of rage and self pity. And you kick her and bite her as that toddler and use her as your punch bag, while expecting she will never reject or get cross or say no.

It's a mix of 'I want to embrace my inner idea' and 'I want to let it all hang out and take no responsibility, requiring free therapeutic care from any female in my vicinity cos what else are they for'. There's sure as hell never identifying as the real kind of female whose job is to wipe the bums and endure the endless crap of more important people, and never mention their own wants and needs.

It's basically what feminism was trying to sort for decades before a lot of very stupid and gullible women got sucked in to mummying again and slammed it all in reverse.

I do think a hell of a lot of teenaged girls are desperate to escape the kind of 'womanhood' the gender movement is selling, because who wants to be a codependent, masochistic doormat/sex prop/NPC doomed to a life of pandering selflessly to more important others and their dramas unless they have significant issues?

This movement will always have two groups. The players and controllers and an endless supply of nannies/enablers. I do not blame any kid for thinking 'fuck this, I want to be one of the ones who has some power and isn't abused by others'. And they see what happens to women who say no (or are lesbians) and know the other words and costumes that offer an escape.

Bottom line is though that becoming weirdly short 'men' (and height is always linked to status among men, no point pretending it isn't) with wide hips and, as they move through their 20s, weakened skeletal systems is not actually an escape. They'll just be the same 'weak' women fancy dressing (or role playing if you prefer) 'men', seen instantly as outsiders by the other men. Better be strong, individual, adult women.

I've been watching it play out in real life and it's heartbreaking, all that intelligence and spirit and potential trapped in an increasingly crippled body. For nothing.

This ☝️

And it's a team effort. There are undoubtedly some women whose main interest is in keeping complete focus on the boundary line, there are others who want to engage and be a part of that overall benefit for all.

Having all of that wrapped in to a single person sounds highly unlikely.
There was a post up above that pointed out how rude Nigella Lawson sounded questioning Eddie Izzard in that way (@Maddy70 I think it may have been you?). I agree. The thoughts behind the question sounded like they made a lot of sense but to directly ask that of someone about their own life in front of TV cameras (and presumably a live audience) feels too much IMO. That's why I was very cautious in how I phrased things above because I would never want to put anyone in that position, no matter how curious I was to understand more. But in taking my meandering path to explore, it makes sense that there are others bringing back the key points about women's rights. I'll still refute the idea of my naivety though 😁 I continously seek to understand to also make sure that I'm not being.

But ultimately, I share the view in this comment that to move forward from where we are we need to be a part of [helping to] shape solutions that move us away from genderised personalities not deeper into them. Not each as individuals but as a collective.

I do think a hell of a lot of teenaged girls are desperate to escape the kind of 'womanhood' the gender movement is selling, because who wants to be a codependent, masochistic doormat/sex prop/NPC doomed to a life of pandering selflessly to more important others and their dramas unless they have significant issues?

This is where most of my focus has been, and still remains, to help my daughter. There's tons of great stuff on this thread about exploring stereotypes that will help me with this, over and above what I've been doing/thinking already.

Regarding girls identifying out of girl/womanhood, I found this a very powerful summary of the key patterns that seem to exist. It's a series of cartoons in a Twitter thread:

https://twitter.com/RealityGirlZine/status/1587566678858256394?t=3xfdc4f35s5seFMLj-ho3Q&s=19

I'll add a photo of a collage of all of them below for those not on Twitter.

Photo to go with my above comment