Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 8

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R
OU Departments & Networks:
HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
KS - Kevin Shakesheff. PVC for Research and Innovation
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21😇
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language - This witness did not give evidence.

Witness for JP:

SE - Professor Sarah Earle, Head of the HWSRA

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far - https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Prof Jo Phoenix Witness Statement (scroll to bottom of page and download)

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/phoenix-v-open-university?sd=pf

Thread 1
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Thread 4
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4918479-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-4

Thread 5
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4919223-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-5

Thread 6
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4921308-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-6

Thread 7
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4922765-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-7

@Emotionalsupportviper The women's faces at 6.25 😂 I can't hear the question, but from the answer, it was ridiculous.

Related to this, your earlier enquiry, Denton Document etc., you might want to read this.

https://womenspeakscotland.com/2021/06/23/the-trans-umbrella-is-older-than-you-think

EmotionalSupportViper

Are they frightened that they will accidentally catch common sense?

😂😂😂

@Emotionalsupportviper

"What do they think is going to happen to them?"

I wish I knew. You've only got to look at them when they're protesting - they hide their faces with masks and umbrellas and apparently this is to "protect" them. From whom? What do they think we're going to do? At the LWS events, do they really think that the attendees of what is effectively an al fresco WI meeting are actually going to hurt them?

I suspect it boils down to something similar to the conviction that we're "sleepwalking into a Fascist state" (something I've seen from acquaintances who are Hard Woke Left), the idea that they're under attack, anything or anyone who is even vaguely right-of-centre is evil personified and society is only one mis-step away from a Holocaust. Which, as someone who studied Fascism, I find really quite offensive.

Ultimately, IMO, it comes down to an ingrained sense of victimhood (because the world isn't revolving around them which sends them into Toddler Tantrum Mode), a lack of resilience, an absence of critical thinking and a level of paranoia which probably needs some sort of mental health treatment. That toxic mix - plus internet echo chambers - brings us to the current bin fire.

I've finally managed to read through all these threads (dh thinks I've been even more glued to my phone ) which has taken the last 4 days as I hadn't come across them before

What a wonderful group of articulate, sensitive and thinking women (and a few men) here

I'm off to do some gardening on behalf of some of the names mentioned.

One of the things that struck me was there was (I think) a comment made by one of the witnesses for the OU that was something along the lines of "all transphobes are GC" alongside the comment I think "...and therefore all GC people are transphobes" which went unchallenged as far as I could make out. I may have misremembered or misunderstood though and the threads are too long for me to go back and check.

It does irritate me though: that assumption by many of the GI community. this assumption that if you are GC, you are by definition a transphobe. I even get it from my ds we now avoid the topic

If you're talking Venn diagrams (as have been mentioned on these threads), then if you had two circles of "GC believers" and "transphobes", then transphobes would be a very small circle within the very big circle of GC believers.

To give ds his due, he does understand that sex is binary from a sports perspective (as a teenager, he even cycled in the some of the same races as Zak Bridges) but will still then buy into statements like "Emily Bridges has been banned from competing in cycling races"

And not to give him his due, he has fully bought in to the belief that "Joanna Cherry and JKR are transphobes" - as are all people who believe that it is not possible to change sex, as he says that all concerns raised are just transphobic fear mongering.

All power to Jo Phoenix et al for wanting to do research, as we need be able to provide appropriate care and long term planning, no matter what gender one presents as and the impact of any medication or surgery. And for the guy can't remember his name wanting to do counselling for young people, which is not the same as "conversion therapy".

As a feminist of many years standing, I despair that GI beliefs seem to be pushing women back into gender silos, after decades of fighting for the right to overcome gendered assumptions.

...and don't get me started on the Orwellian newspeak attack on the very definition of the word "woman".

And breathe

@Based 1. the real life person denied it was them. 2. they behaved in a way that made it very unlikely unlikely.

Now JoPhoenix is not behaving in an obviously unlikely way - it's perfectly possible she has seen the threads and felt supported/amused. So I have no reason this time to doubt that Jo is Jo, I just cant rely on it.

JP username has a history that dates to Oct./Nov 2022. Not definitive but useful.

https://www.mumsnet.com/search/advanced?username=JoPhoenix

The masking is to prevent identification if they do something criminal.

Covid masking was a godsend to them.

Frankly unless there is a medical need for it (ie someone is vulnerable and the health risks are too great not to wear a mask) then the "mask up" edict should be rescinded, and anyone wearing a mask who can't prove a medical reason treated as part of a paramilitary organisation in these situations (disrupting peaceful meetings/ talks etc) and arrested. They are behaving like terrorists.

They admit the masks are to prevent identification but claim it's because the feminists and GC people will dox them or otherwise get up to shenanigans. It's a tissue thin excuse.

I think they're partly aware that their behaviour may get them into trouble with their employers, the police* or their terfy mums, which just speaks to an acknowledgement that they're acting unacceptably.

I think the masks are disinhibiting and foster camaraderie, which is also disinhibiting.

Then there's the cosplay element. I believe that it's all part of marginalised and vulnerable™️, genocide, put into camps and other apocalyptic bollocks they spout. It's possible some truly believe this, this cohort need decent mental health support. The rest know it's rubbish but get off on imagining themselves as a sort of French resistance, bravely fighting the forces of biological reality. In this bunch their nazis are entirely projected and, in a sane world, they'd be kept as far from first cohort as possible. In the second group I include all the types like Daniel Radcliffe, wisely reassuring gender confused kids he'll never meet that he loves them but, yes, the world does hate them.

*fat chance

The masking is to prevent identification if they do something criminal.

But I thought they were on the right side of history and any violence is just them defending themselves against the ever-present threat of TERFery and Fascism?

I've been pondering the number of high profile GC women called either Jo or Helen. It's quite striking IMO.

I'm just listening to one of the Helens, Helen Joyce. She's brilliant, so clear and coherent.

The thing is i do not believe that all these demos, complaints to the charity commission, university trans activism, coordinated complaints to research institutions re individuals, following Stock around and entering women's meetings are random activities.

Somebody is coordinating all of this. The question is who?

It is obvious to me that research institutions would be a target because that may lift the lid on all this nonsense.

So how do we find out who it is

plus Sayre’s law… "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low."

IcakethereforeIam · 23/10/2023 13:40

Ithink they're partly aware that their behaviour may get them into trouble with their employers, the police* or their terfy mums, which just speaks to an acknowledgement that they're acting unacceptably.

I was thinking of exactly those three things, especially their mothers.

DrBlackbird · 23/10/2023 17:27

That's quite the damning indictment, isn't it?

I think the claims that they need to “protect themselves” are partly projection. They hate women and know what they do to them, given the opportunity (intimidation, doxxing, physical attacks, attempts to get women sacked). They attribute all those things to women because they judge everyone is vindictive. That’s actually how they are, but it’s easier mentally to blame someone else, rather than facing up to it.

I’m me. Taken outside Watford ET one morning

Jo great to see you here.

💐Jo, you are so brave!
Reading these threads about the tribunal has been really eye-opening for me.
Thank you.

Lovely to see you Jo. You are a definite shero taking all this on. I hope you have had much-needed laughs with the support, songs, jokes and cheese on the thread.

More power to you.

Hi Jo hope you are doing okay, and hope your complaint is upheld, you have so much courage and i am so grateful to you

Hi @JoPhoenix I'm glad you're here, hope you found some support and entertainment here!

If in doubt about who's genuine we can contact the mods, we are anonymous but we can't pretend to be someone else for real, that's trolling. I contacted the mods when another identifiable poster was behaving so oddly I thought they must be a troll but the mods assured me that poster was for real.

And I hope things go well for you! Thanks to your courage and determination the message is getting louder and clearer that selfrighteousness does not justify bullying at work or stopping other people from doing their work properly.

So brave Jo, thank-you