Morality and the left

[Rabaula27]

excuse the ramblings but my thoughts on this are not entirely clear yet and I am looking for the opinions of others to help me clarify my own.

There seems to be a general belief in society that the progressive left are a morally good force and morally superior to the right.

I have never really believed this myself but I have met many people who seem to see the right as bad or morally defective in some way.

I believe that this is wrong and that it comes from the decline of Christianity and the left appropriating and twisting some previously held Christian moral assumptions from the 1960’s onwards with scriptures such as ‘the meek shall inherit the earth’ or ‘blessed are the poor in spirit’ being twisted to mean things like ‘the stronger of the two parties in any dispute is automatically the oppressor’ or poverty being seen as a virtue.

When I look at the world today I just don’t see the left as particularly moral at all. Here are some of the things that really jump out at me:

1. While many left wing people genuinely do want to help the disadvantaged some of them are no doubt also driven by envy, resentment and a desire to appropriate that which they did not earn. It’s not like the mainstream right want people to be poor or hungry is it? They just disagree on the best way to create wealth and prosperity. That might make them wrong but it doesn’t make them bad.
2. The scandal of PIE in the U.K. that happened in the 1970’s and early 80’s wasn’t an isolated incident and it hasn’t gone away, it has been with the post-modern left since the beginning and there are still elements of the left that are ideologically sympathetic towards that sort of thing today and there always has been.
3. There are obviously sections of the left that are anti-Semitic and again there always have been.

These are just three random examples of the left being an immoral or at least no better than the right. What do others think about this?

I’m wondering if the left are just wrong because their view of human nature is wrong and all their mistakes flow from that?

Like all movements there are factions. I don’t recognise the progressive left when compared with old school labour. They are obsessed with identity politics over social justice.

I agree with you that different political ideologies have different views on the best ways to create wealth.

PIE was obviously a disgrace but I do think attitudes across the political spectrum were very different at the time (though not saying a majority of people of any political persuasion would have agreed with it!)

I don't think any political persuasion has 'the wrong' view of human nature. I don't believe that there is one 'human nature' as such tbh.

Thanks for your reply.

You seem to see the old labour left and the modern progressive left as two different things? I don’t I’m afraid, I see modern progressivism as the next logical step on the left wing road. I don’t think it’s an accident that the old left metastatised into what we have today and it’s not a coincidence that it has happened to all mainstream leftwing parties in all western countries.

I've come to the conclusion that any faction which deems itself "morally superior", be it the 'progressive left' or the 'religious right', very rarely is. Or at least, not about everything.

The left don’t believe in human nature at all. The see people as being born more like blank slates and society making them what they are. So nothing is really anyone’s fault.

There are still sections of the left that are sympathetic toward PIE and groups like that today and that’s not unique to the U.K. The Green Party in Germany is a particularly notorious example.

Left and right are very broad terms, which mean things to different people;

Left = liberal and/or socialist and/or Labour/Green/LibDem voter?
Right = conservative and/or capitalist and/or Conservative voter?

In my head, the left are 'liberal' and the right are 'conservative'. There are benefits and pitfalls to both.

The "right" used to seemingly think that the "left" were morally defective in some way, when more people derived their morals from religion - but these days you're correct, the "left" see the "right" as morally defective; I guess as they see the "right" as infringing on people's freedoms?

It's too complex!

Absolute bobbins, OP. "The Left" don't hold a view on nature v nurture, tabula rasa etc. You're spouting nonsense.

There are dickheads everywhere. They just label themselves slightly differently depending on their background. I grew up in academic circles, you had to profess to be left wing even if you didn't believe any of it. And you knew which people you would never, ever leave your kids with. I don't think the fact that one of my father's colleagues thought he should take his daughter's virginity was particularly connected to him being left wing. He was just bad news and happened to follow the academic crowd. I'm sure there are as many incestuous paedos in other political circles.

The right are just as bad.

Beginning to think all these anti “left” posts are some kind of smear campaign to help the tories gain in the polls. They are absolutely morally bankrupt and spouting contradictory populist nonsense because they think we’re too stupid not to notice. And now they’re on mumsnet smearing the left with broad strokes… I guess schools and education have done so poorly in the past 13 years that some of it will land with single issue voters.

Okay but can we talk about Ireland and the peace process which was under a labour government?

Pretty good in my eyes!

Agreed @Weefreetiffany !

@WitchyWitcherson I think liberals do think that conservatives want to infringe upon their individual freedoms and they probably do want to do that.

But that is not necessarily bad though it? It certainly doesn’t make them morally defective to think there are somethings that people shouldn’t be free to do like take hard drugs all day or run brothels. The people that want to restrict these sorts of things aren’t motivated by badness.

In fact I would argue that the mess we are in now is because we have created an ultra individualistic society where the total freedom of the individual is the ultimate goal. This is probably why a lot of progressives seem GC feminists as bad, they are attempting to restrict the freedom of individuals to be whatever they want to be and have those choices validated. You should not criticise individual choices according to progressives because criticism pushes people to conform and that in itself restricts individual liberty.

OK but what does any of this have to do with women or feminism?

Yeah, you see, there's the problem. I see you as a bigot who wants to trade in simple labels to peddle lies. I'm sure that isn't how you want to come across, but that's the likely outcome when you go around making gross assumptions about millions of people all thinking the same thing. The "left" is no more a cohesive whole than the "right", or, indeed, "feminists".

Hey, I promise you I will never advocate voting Tory. And I totally accept this shit state the country is in happened under the Conservative Party who I regard as fake conservatives. I hope the General Election wipes them out.

I’m just saying that some sections of the left are PIE supporting, anti-Semitic racists and not good people and that the left as a whole are morally no better than the right.

@Rabaula27

You've constructed enough straw men so far to set up a nice business. What gibberish.

I’m not sure I believe that people are particularly moral at all. I think they would like to be but when being “moral” interferes with self interest and particularly loyalty in key relationships morality goes out the window. Cynical auld me!!!

However look at how rape and abuse are managed by society, estimates put the proliferation extremely high 1 in 4 women sexually assaulted and 1 in 6 children sexually abused. Not particularly moral behaviour there, murder, robbery etc etc etc I think high levels morality is a bit wishful thinking.

What have I said that you think is wrong?

I think you are right. People aren’t naturally very moral at all. I think that unfortunately is human nature. The left don’t really believe that though. They believe people are born blank slate’s and society and the things that happen to them socially condition them to be either good or bad. So nothing is really anyone’s fault. And then you end up with convicted rapists getting community service instead of prison in Scotland.

I think your analysis is quite simplistic:

Where would you see a libertarian who supports same-sex marriage, regulated and legal prostitution and recreational drug sales; but who also opposes any government funded healthcare or education? Left wing or right wing?

What about someone who is strongly economically redistributive, but wants to ban smoking, prostitution, and heavily regulate alcohol sales?

well kids learn through example and then they grow up and become adults that have to function in society. But the Tory way to to make criminals and then punish them by making a scarcity society where community is a dirty word and everyone’s just to for themselves. Or backhanders for their rich mates. At least the left make gestures towards the collective good.

and the “tabla rasa” blank slate idea was proposed by philosopher John Locke who was pretty right wing and pro monarchist so your argument falls down a bit there!

The Left don't need any help showing their true colours, they're happy to vocalise them plainly
eg Harriet "a woman is a woman or a person with a GRC" Harman

But feel free to start as many threads on the amoralism of the Right, I'm sure you've got the ammo.

The Left are about to gain power in the UK with a couple of decades of the GRA on the statute book, have declared they'll make GRCs easier to come by, will criminalise misgendering.

I think that makes our scrutiny of the moralism or amoralism of the Left totally relevant.

If the Tories under Badenoch, Braverman, Cates or Kruger looks like they're set for power in 2029, then that'll be the time to scrutinise the Right.

I saw left v right as community/society v individual. Left wing solutions to social problems focus on social structures and issurs such as raising people out of poverty. This needs money and the rich should help the poor (who they have probably exploited to get rich in the first place.)

Right wing solutions tend to focus on the individual such as tougher sentences for criminals. As the problem is the bad individual, why should good people pay for this so taxes on the rich are lower.

I personally think that left wing is better, especially if you look at our history. The NHS was as a result of refusing to allow individual doctors to profit while the masses suffered. Council houses were built to provide "homes for heroes" who had built bonds as brothers during the war. Contrast that with right-wing solutions like workhouses, debtors prisons and exploitative factories and mines.

I have always been a "leftie liberal" and I always will be. I think we are better together.

@Weefreetiffany I would rather pluck my own teeth out than vote Tory. The thread I started on the misogynist left was me posting my own heartfelt and sincere thoughts. Not a smear campaign!