Labour want jail time for pronoun refuseniks - DM

[mb2512cat]

In normal times I’d think this couldn’t possibly be true but these days I wouldn’t put anything past Labour once they’re in power.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12631243/Deliberately-calling-wrong-gender-pronouns-land-jail-TWO-YEARS-Labour.html

"I'm as GC as they come but...."

How do you plan to go on being GC if saying anything at all outside of enabling a special person's preferred personal fiction is a jailable offence?

If you've listened to five minutes of the current ongoing court case, you'll know that there's plenty of people around in surprisingly high places who do not believe in anyone's else's right to state reality or anyone else's rights either, if it conflicts with the primacy of a selected male person stating a T identity. And they sound quite mad.

The DM is a shit-stirring rag that exaggerates and fabricates for clickbait.

Bad legislation can be (and has been) written that results in unforeseen consequences, facilitated by pliant enforcement agencies.

Both things can be true at the same time.

I have wondered in the past if that is due to a more purposive interpretation in line with EU law instead of the traditional literal interpretation. Of course when you change the meaning of words a literal interpretation changes too. Just thinking out loud really.

Are you suggesting that transphobic abuse should NOT be treated the same as race or religious attacks?

Not if it's still treated as a lesser offence to do it in the basis of sex or disability, no.

I would also ask: why should I unconditionally obey someone's language choices when they openly have no interest in or respect for mine?

I'm not codependent thanks. It's not a healthy way to be.

Any law currently being passed (and that has been passed in the last 13 years) has been agreed by a Tory majority.

It's not true. Also its a daily mail link.

Could you link what you’ve read on misgendering and the new Labour hate crime?

That's it in a nutshell. What criminal sanction are you proposing for those that won't comply?
Damned if I'll ever use 'Suzy' Izzard's preferred pronouns. In fact I feel it is my right to point out just what sex he is. Should I be in jail?

Taking this story at its highest, it strikes me that this offence would be very hard to prove. You would need to show, beyond all reasonable doubt, that the offender knew the person was transgender, that they were motivated by hatred of transgender people, not a mere dislike of an individual, or an accidental mistake. An aggravated offence as opposed to an aggravated sentence is very hard to prove and charge.

Technically, it may excite a few posters to know that the reason there are not more aggravated offenses is that the charging standard is very high in terms of the evidence required, and the prosecution is very likely to fail.

This is why, many years ago, criminal justice policy was set to aggravate the sentence, not the offence, because you die not have to have a separate hearing on the evidence regarding whether the offence was aggravated itself because a defendant could admit the basic offence but not the aggravating element (ie I did hit him your honor but I am not a racist).

The costs of longer trials and a separate criminal process was significant.

Therefore, you aggravated the sentence because a judge could do that based on the findings of fact for the offence.

There are a lot of technical legal issues beyond that, but even if this proposal were real, it would be costly, ineffective and nearly impossible to prove.

The OP's article quotes Dodds. Here is her speech in full.

https://labour.org.uk/updates/press-releases/anneliese-dodds-speech-at-labour-party-conference/

Is it based on this?

'I know it’s been a difficult year for LGBT+ people.
Rising hate crime including physical attacks.
A Tory Government that treats their lives and their rights as a political football and a Prime Minister who sees them as a cheap punchline.
Labour will never do that.
We believe everyone deserves to be accepted, without exception and treated with respect and dignity.
That’s why we will tackle the rising tide of hate, with stronger laws so those who carry out anti-LGBT+ hate crime get the tougher sentences they deserve.
We will deliver where the Conservatives have failed by bringing in a full, no-loopholes, trans-inclusive ban on conversion therapy.
And we will modernise the gender recognition law to a new process, while continuing to support the implementation of the Equality Act that protects everyone. '

THIS - all day long.
Relying on fairness, equality. people's sense of decency, politicians understanding the need to safeguard children has proved to be completely useless in the face of this pernicious ideology.

What would be really useful, for those posters who are committed Labour supporters, would be if you could signpost to Labour policy on relevant issues.

I can't find this mentioned so far on the Labour policy website. Don't see anything about hate crime on this part:

https://labour.org.uk/missions/safe-streets/

If you look at Twitter you can see Harriet Harman's definition of a woman. Read it and weep

Within a decade, our mission means we will:

• Halve the level of violence against women and girls.
• Halve the incidents of knife crime.
• Raise confidence in every police force to its highest levels.
• Reverse the collapse in the proportion of crimes solved.

Would you like to buy a nice bridge? Ridiculous wish-list. Are they worthy objectives; of course they are. But what can Labour do to cause this sea-change that no administration has been able to achieve in any country anywhere? I can't take it seriously.

I don’t have a Twitter account so can’t see it. Any chance you could post the definition or link to it, please?

This is from 2021 Labour paper

That it’s the first time gender ie males have been included is seen as a selling point.

I haven’t seen whether misgendering is included. Those confident that it is not, what is that based on?

It's Ok, they're going to fund it with the money that nice e-mail promised them as soon as they've sent over their bank details.

@EasternStandard - there is no such thing as hate crime in law.

There are aggravated offences on the basis of religion and race. Those have been a huge issue in the criminal justice system for the reasons I gave below.

Then there is aggravating sentencing based on characteristics (including transgender status).

Hate crime is not an actual thing. It is what stupid activists want to have group think as to how people express themselves.

That’s a quote from a Labour paper

Their words

If they cannot accurately describe their proposal that is even more a reason to avoid not less

But I will say that the idea of hate crime, the use of this idea by the police and general attempt to get this idea as part of public life is very very similar to what happened with trans policy.

There was no legal change, but suddenly authorities changed how they worked and talked to the public. And people came to believe there was "hate crime". Well there isn't, and people on the left and right in this country need to push back on this idea, because quite simply, being a bigot or transphobe or homophobe or sexist or racist is not illegal. Maybe distasteful. But not illegal.

The Tory propaganda tabloid is smearing labour policies ahead of the next election. Surely not!

@EasternStandard - there are just fundamentally too many problems legally with this idea for it to work at a criminal level.

I do not object to a judge saying fir example, you hit this person and your motive was in part connected to their race.

Anyway this is real fruit loop stuff in the DM. If it makes the Labour manifesto I will eat my metaphorical hat

The proposal for gender is in this, and clearly states it will be new approach under their legislation

https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Ending-Violence-Against-Women-and-Girls-Green-Paper.pdf