Remember, trans lesbians are lesbians too

[Annisfinallygone]

.....Says the UN Women Twitter account (2.2million followers)

'Let's uplift EVERY expression of love and identify.' Is their rallying cry.

Er, won't they be dealing with a lot of women who have been raped, experienced FGM, child marriage and abuse as children?

Every expression of love? Really??

For once, I think I'm struck dumb.

https://twitter.com/UN_Women

I wonder what proportion of so called ‘trans lesbians’ would have a sexual relationship with other so called ‘trans lesbians’.

Wow - UN women & even posters on this thread demonstrating what coercive control of lesbians looks like.

What does it mean, then, "to be exclusively sexually attracted to other women" if the category "women" is defined in a way that is unfalsifiable (e.g. abstract, inner feelings of femininity which some people of either sex can have) so that trans women can be lesbians?

Are lesbians supposed to be sexually drawn to only people who share their own gender identity? So a lesbian who has a nonbinary-identifying female partner is no longer a lesbian but what? And a lesbian with a trans man partner is now heterosexual, but if they break up and the lesbian then partners with a female woman she becomes what? Bi?

Some argue that the new definition means that we are all drawn to gender presentation, so that lesbians would be drawn to men who dress feminine but would not be drawn to women who dress masculine. This makes no sense, either, given the concept of butch lesbians etc.

None of the gender-based definitions of sexuality work.

You weren't. You were doing what you thought was right with what you knew at the time. I did the same until I hit the realities underpinning the nice stuff on top, thought wtf, and realised what I was nodding along to. Most of us here remember what opened our eyes.

And there's no woman here who wants anything worse than equality of rights. Equality of respect and consideration. That's what causing the rage and death threats: the idea of having to accept and respect that some women say no, their bodies are not available, and their reality does NOT revolve around what a male tells them it is. That some women say yes is not enough. The target is always the non consenting ones.

It's the ultimate invalidation. Many of these male people are extremely sexist and homophobic in the first place. The entitlement and narcissism takes it to the next level.

It doesn’t matter if the concept of male lesbians doesn’t contain an element of sexual coercion or pressure (even though in practice it does.) The concept of a male lesbian means that in theory they are part of the dating pool of lesbians - they are technically “in the running” for romantic consideration. If a male with a self-professed man mind said that he identified as a lesbian, and wouldn’t the lesbians please consider giving him a chance, he would rightly be laughed out of town. But also, importantly, lesbian women would be entirely justified in rejecting him. He clearly is NOT in the category of lesbian.

But now there are males with special woman minds , and lesbian rejection of them is treated very differently. Because they are regarded as literally women lesbian rejection is seen as cruel, exclusive, divisive, and bigoted. It is regarded as nasty and arbitrary to not include , even in theory, even with lip service, these males in the category of lesbian. So even if a woman never intends to date or have sex with these male women she is not permitted to joke about them or complain, nor explicitly reject them , or say they are not really lesbians. She must stay quiet when they come to lesbian only bars or clubs or parties or events.

Another thing which hasn’t been considered is the massive head fuck of the very definition of the sexual orientation of “lesbian” being transformed beyond recognition. Lesbian now includes males with penises who produce semen, so lesbians can no longer quip that a benefit of lesbian sex is no one gets pregnant (I’ve seen lots of scolding for innocent humorous remarks). Safe sex advice for lesbians is essentially straight safe sex advice. I’ve had to experience this too- the definition of bisexual has changed beyond recognition. It no longer reflects my orientation.

and one more thing. If males with woman minds can be lesbians , then really what is the big distinction between them and males with man minds? It once again opens up an opportunity for the sex pest “male lesbian” to complain that lesbians are passing him over.” Oh, so this penis is fine because it’s attached to a lady mind but my penis is off limits because I have a man mind? A bit bigoted no? Why can’t you just ignore the mind the dick is attached to?” In short , saying males can be lesbian entirely destroys and subverts the very concept of lesbianity which is essentially rooted in attraction to the female sex by members of the female sex. So that’s why UN women’s message is messed up.

God, I miss Magdalen Berns.

s

Maybe trans lesbians could date other trans lesbians?

Some excellent posts on this thread. It's a tonic to read some sanity and watch the wonderful Magdalen.

I find the denial on this thread that lesbians are being treated this way appalling. I saw Jenny’s update and it is horrific.

Errr. I can also vouch that Sappho used to post as she has stated. Why would she lie ?

I also recall your posts. (I had a different user name, and then left MN for a while)
You were never a knobhead though.

Back in 2018 I had a dm from user name mommydavid on this board, about me sucking lady dick, along with some other pretty unhinged comments. I've still got a copy of the message.

Thank you for this post. It clearly and powerfully says what I (a heterosexual woman who has a few close friends who are lesbian) feel about this transwomen lesbian stuff but couldn't articulate. Thank you.

The level of intelligent and articulate parsing and drilling down and analysis on this part of the site is just fantastic. (sorry I didn't say that very well!)

@SapphosRock I really respect the courage to change one's mind in a public forum, and to own it. Fair play to you.

Lesbians don’t have penises. It’s concerning that the UN are trying to convince us otherwise. Lesbian = same sex attraction. Nothing to do with gender. It’s impossible to change sex. Those are all facts.

Thank you Bez, and I am grateful that posters welcomed me back to the forum with no hard feelings.

My posts are a reflection of how I experience real life as a lesbian. When I came out in the noughties things were pretty good for lesbians, we finally had visibility and equality and there were lots of spaces exclusively for lesbians. Men tried to invade these (of course) but we were able to keep them out on the basis they were male.

It is now really, REALLY rare to find anything that puts lesbians front and centre. We no longer have events, social groups, club nights, Pride marches, dating apps, even our magazine (Diva) now centres trans lesbians.

When we try and arrange anything for ourselves it's heavily protested. A lesbian speed dating event attracted TRA protests. Julie Bindel and Kathleen Stock set up the lesbian project to address the issue of lesbians being marginalised in the LGBT+ community - their meeting was protested by angry trans activists.

It goes back to the very base misogyny that lesbians have experienced all our lives. That we cannot possibly want or need anything for ourselves that excludes men.

We used to get asked by men 'can I watch?' or told that was we really needed was a good seeing to. 'You just need to find the right man' etc

We used to be allowed to tell these men to fuck off. We used to be able to celebrate being exclusively same-sex attracted and have the support from orgs such as Stonewall to be proud of being exclusively same-sex attracted.

Now we are expected to pretend these men are lesbians and consider sleeping with them. And lots of us do pretend these men are lesbians for an easy life (but we rarely sleep with them, this makes them angry - see the cotton ceiling).

It's a joke.

The only people lesbians can have sex with is other lesbians. You are at least saying lesbians are within ‘trans lesbians’ dating pool - and their only dating pool. You are saying lesbians cannot reject these people because they are make. At worst, like Nancy Kelly, you are saying lesbians who reject these people because they are male are prejudiced. All of these positions are deeply homophobic.

They are on to a loser with this nonsense.

@SapphosRock that's all really rough and any time lesbians want their own stuff they have my support in that. I'm male, so I haven't experienced it, but I hear from many posters on here how the presence of just one man changes the dynamic even if he miraculously avoids taking over the conversation and mansplaining constantly
Women deserve single-sex spaces and women should not have to justify that. (men already have and always have had loads)

Maybe any poster who wishes to continue to deny that lesbians are being harassed for excluding male people from lesbian spaces perhaps they would like to see this video taken by a person with no connection to feminists at the protest outside The Lesbian Project meeting.

https://www.thelesbianproject.co.uk

If this was not to silence lesbians who simply met to discuss the project, not sure what these protestors were doing. If this is denied as a demonstration of the hatred directed at lesbians who say 'no, lesbians are female and female only' then I doubt those denying this are capable of evaluating the reactions towards lesbians with any honesty or balance.

Thanks for sharing that video again @Helleofabore , great example of lesbians being bullied.

In my experience about 1% of lesbians genuinely believe trans women are women.

The rest will either agree trans women are women for an easy life to avoid being bullied (but won't date a trans woman) or else they are sick of paraphilic males pretending to be lesbians, openly state they are exclusively same-sex attracted and do not include males in their definition of women.

Both make men furious, hence the bullying.

Yes, or that lesbians who don't want to sleep with trans women are "obsessed by genitals"
Gaslighting, manipulative abuse.

Women’s groups have accused the United Nations of promoting a “rape culture” by saying trans women can be lesbians.

Earlier this week UN Women – the branch of the UN working for the empowerment of women – posted on X, formerly known as Twitter: “Remember, trans lesbians are lesbians too. Let’s uplift and honour every expression of love and identity.”
The organisation Women’s Declaration International (WDI) said this was “offensive and degrading to women” because it told lesbians they should consider approaches from biological men.

Sally Wainwright from WDI said: “It is almost beyond belief that the UN is promoting the homophobic and misogynist ideology that <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/wJLYy/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/10/03/women-only-wards-nhs-trans-activists-defeat/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">pretends men can be women and therefore lesbians.

“Lesbians are same-sex attracted females and suggesting that they should accept heterosexual men as ‘lesbians’ is not only offensive and degrading to women, but also endorses a rape culture.

“UN Women, of all organisations, should be protecting lesbians – <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/wJLYy/www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2023/06/15/non-man-john-hopkins-glossary/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">and other women – from men’s unwanted sexual demands.”

She said the tweet contravened the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, adopted by the UN General Assembly in 1979.

“CEDAW makes clear that women’s rights are based on our sex,” she said. “It’s time the UN started upholding that.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/12/un-accused-of-promoting-rape-culture-trans-women-lesbians/

(sorry if already posted, but thought it good that it is getting some media publicity - and article can be read at https://archive.ph by pasting in the telegraph link above)