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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Remember, trans lesbians are lesbians too

125 replies

Annisfinallygone · 08/10/2023 21:11

.....Says the UN Women Twitter account (2.2million followers)

'Let's uplift EVERY expression of love and identify.' Is their rallying cry.

Er, won't they be dealing with a lot of women who have been raped, experienced FGM, child marriage and abuse as children?

Every expression of love? Really??

For once, I think I'm struck dumb.

https://twitter.com/UN_Women

https://twitter.com/UN_Women

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9
PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 13:13

SapphosRock · 09/10/2023 13:10

Yeah I am a lesbian and I used to post 'trans lesbians are lesbians' and #LWiththeT etc on Twitter.

Then I realised that every lesbian social group, app and online space was dominated by male lesbians. That lesbianism was being fetishised by heterosexual men obsessed with lesbian porn. That young lesbians were identifying as queer or transitioning to trans men at an alarming rate. That there is not a single lesbian club or bar left in my home town. That lesbian visibility week focuses on the visibility of males with gender dysphoria.

So I stopped posting that stuff on Twitter.

Sure you did.

Funny that that's not the experience of lots and lots of lesbians though, isn't it.

forgotmyusername1 · 09/10/2023 13:18

Where this all falls down is that other lesbians don't like lady dick

so they can call themselves lesbian but won't actually get to sleep with other lesbians

newamsterdam · 09/10/2023 13:19

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 13:12

Sorry, I don't know that lesbians who post on twitter under their own names are lesbians? Are you sure about that?

I don't know that they mean what they say? Well I suppose that's true of anyone, but if your view on lesbian opinion on this rests on those lesbians being either liars or idiots, I'm not sure that's a terribly sound assumption.

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Of course I am sure about that. How can you possibly know?

It is a terribly sound assumption to say that anyone purporting to be a lesbian and saying men are women, and men are lesbians, is an idiot.

Anyone who genuinely thinks transwomen are women are idiots. They have the IQ of a potato. OR, they are lying.
There are no other options available.

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 13:21

forgotmyusername1 · 09/10/2023 13:18

Where this all falls down is that other lesbians don't like lady dick

so they can call themselves lesbian but won't actually get to sleep with other lesbians

Firstly, not all trans women have penises. Secondly, some cisgender lesbians do have relationships with trans women, including pre-operative trans women.

And third, someone being a lesbian isn't dependent on other people's willingness to have sex with them.

Helleofabore · 09/10/2023 13:22

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 12:58

I did but it's not.

It's really this simple. If lesbians are free to reject other women as sexual or dating partners for any reason they wish, then recognising trans women as women does not imply any obligation, duty or coercion for anyone to have sex with anyone they do not want to.

If you think that recognising trans women as women implies some belief in a duty on the part of lesbians to have sex with people they don't want it, then it implies that lesbians do not have the right to withhold consent for sex from someone provided they are a woman.

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What part of peer group indoctrination of young teenagers are you actually missing here? They are telling each other it is transphobic to not 'do dick'.

Maybe you don't understand just how vulnerable these girls are to peer group pressure. Maybe you just have no fucking idea.

DialSquare · 09/10/2023 13:25

Sure you did.

Sappho used to post similar on here too and mostly disagreed with the majority on this board. There's quite a few of us who can verify this.

forgotmyusername1 · 09/10/2023 13:31

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 13:21

Firstly, not all trans women have penises. Secondly, some cisgender lesbians do have relationships with trans women, including pre-operative trans women.

And third, someone being a lesbian isn't dependent on other people's willingness to have sex with them.

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a very very very small percentage of transwomen get 'bottom surgery'

newamsterdam · 09/10/2023 13:33

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 13:21

Firstly, not all trans women have penises. Secondly, some cisgender lesbians do have relationships with trans women, including pre-operative trans women.

And third, someone being a lesbian isn't dependent on other people's willingness to have sex with them.

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The vast majority of transwomen have penises, and those that don't are still men without penises.

Any woman having a relationship with a male body, with or without a penis, but usually with, is categorically not a lesbian. In the same way as you're not a vegan if you eat steak.

you can't identify out of reality. You're not a lesbian if your romantic /sexual partner is a man.

napody · 09/10/2023 13:39

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 12:58

I did but it's not.

It's really this simple. If lesbians are free to reject other women as sexual or dating partners for any reason they wish, then recognising trans women as women does not imply any obligation, duty or coercion for anyone to have sex with anyone they do not want to.

If you think that recognising trans women as women implies some belief in a duty on the part of lesbians to have sex with people they don't want it, then it implies that lesbians do not have the right to withhold consent for sex from someone provided they are a woman.

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I get that you think this argument holds up.
But lesbians are not refusing transwomen 'for any reason at all'. They're refusing them because they are lesbian, and transwomen are men. They don't need to decide on a case by case basis. That's why we have words to describe people's sexual orientations at all. What do you think a lesbian is?

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 13:43

Ok but lots of lesbians disagree with you so…

literalviolence · 09/10/2023 13:43

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 12:58

I did but it's not.

It's really this simple. If lesbians are free to reject other women as sexual or dating partners for any reason they wish, then recognising trans women as women does not imply any obligation, duty or coercion for anyone to have sex with anyone they do not want to.

If you think that recognising trans women as women implies some belief in a duty on the part of lesbians to have sex with people they don't want it, then it implies that lesbians do not have the right to withhold consent for sex from someone provided they are a woman.

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You are really trying to make something simple which is actually not simple. On one level of course a lesbian can say no to any person with a dick even if they demand that people pretend they're a woman. But on another level we are creating conditions of internal pressure whereby lesbians feel bad for knowing that they could never fancy a transwoman. There are documented cases of women saying they felt pressurised into saying 'yes' to having sex with a male because of this sort of narrative. Those women did not want to see themselves as bigoted and had fallen for the oppressors narrative. Language has impacts and trying to make out this is no big deal cos women can just say 'you might be a lesbian but I just don't fancy you' is really unhelpful.

napody · 09/10/2023 13:44

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 13:43

Ok but lots of lesbians disagree with you so…

What are lesbians though, according to you?

newamsterdam · 09/10/2023 13:45

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 13:43

Ok but lots of lesbians disagree with you so…

Lots? No.
The few that appear to are either lying, idiots, or so pressurised by TRA narratives that they are genuinely confused.

There is no definition of lesbian that includes men.

You can't be a vegan if you eat meat, and you can't be a lesbian if you eat dick.

literalviolence · 09/10/2023 13:46

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 13:21

Firstly, not all trans women have penises. Secondly, some cisgender lesbians do have relationships with trans women, including pre-operative trans women.

And third, someone being a lesbian isn't dependent on other people's willingness to have sex with them.

Show quote history

Lesbians are free to have sex with any male they want to have sex with. No one wants to stop those people from expanding their dating pool to include transwoman as well as actual women, whether they've still got their cock or not.

That doesn't make it a lesbian relationship and the male is still not a woman.

IMHO, it also means the person is bisexual. Which is fine and maybe lesbian support/ dating groups are still OK for them to be a member.

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 13:46

That is all predicated on a lack of agency on the part of lesbians, and the idea that lesbians are routinely having sex with people solely to not hurt feelings.

It just doesn’t reflect most lesbians experience.

forgotmyusername1 · 09/10/2023 13:47

I read a reddit post by someone

They were a trans woman. They admit they are male presenting and do not pass. They have only just started transitioning and do not take hormones or have any surgery.
They were upset they were not put in the female dorm house with a female room mate at university despite telling the uni they were a trans woman. Apparently the uni asked the other women if anyone would share and were told a resolute no so they were instead sharing with a gay man in the mixed block. This indivdual was also identified as a lesbian

Then came the responses of how unfair it is, it doesn't matter you don't pass they should accept you are a woman and can't bunk with a man. They should essentually put you in with a bio woman anyway and you can sue them if they don't (even though all the women said no)

So it doesn't matter if the women don't want to share with you, you have to force them. Your inner lady feelz can only be validated by being put in the women only block where maybe he thinks they have pillow fights in nighties like in a carry on film from the 60's?

It is the idea that in their eyes being validated is more important that the views of the women who would be forced into sharing with a biological man who fancies women including one who would be sharing a bedroom with them.

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 13:47

A woman exclusively attracted to other women.

literalviolence · 09/10/2023 13:48

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 13:46

That is all predicated on a lack of agency on the part of lesbians, and the idea that lesbians are routinely having sex with people solely to not hurt feelings.

It just doesn’t reflect most lesbians experience.

It doesn't need to be routine to be completely fucking inappropriate.

You do not speak for most lesbians.

literalviolence · 09/10/2023 13:49

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 13:47

A woman exclusively attracted to other women.

Exactly! So a transwoman can never be a lesbian because they're not a woman.

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 13:49

Never claimed to. But neither does anyone here.

newamsterdam · 09/10/2023 13:49

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 13:47

A woman exclusively attracted to other women.

Well done, that is the definition. And since transwomen are by definition men, that means they can't be lesbians.

PlanetJanette · 09/10/2023 13:50

Ok but that is obviously contested and plenty of people disagree with you on that.

Brumbies · 09/10/2023 13:50

What is a trans lesbian ? I can't work it out.

Is it a man who likes women?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 09/10/2023 13:52

That is all predicated on a lack of agency on the part of lesbians, and the idea that lesbians are routinely having sex with people solely to not hurt feelings.

**
this entirely ignores the intersection with the patriarchy, sexism & misogyny. Lesbians are women and socialised as women in a patriarchal society which means they’ve been brought up to aware of, and wary of, angering men

TW are very very angry with lesbians who want to keep them out of women’s spaces

Theeyeballsinthesky · 09/10/2023 13:52

Men can’t be women, that’s not ‘contested’ that’s biological fucking reality