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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Anyone else GC and left wing in their politics?

573 replies

mids2019 · 05/10/2023 06:37

I am finding the conservative party conference difficult in some sense as I agree with some of their GC policies and attitudes yet would describe my self as a working class died in the will leftie. I really don't like this assumption that being for women's rights automatically means people associate you with right wing politics in general. For me it's simply not the case.

Why is it that poor now associate left with trans rights????

OP posts:
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PorcelinaV · 06/10/2023 18:59

@Helleofabore

If you don't believe that the intelligence level of posters on this board can cope with reading the Daily Mail and such and then apply their critical thinking abilities to work out what is click bait and what is factual reporting (even within the same article), again, that really is your own prejudice.

It does seem to be a worry of some on the left, that the stupid people are being poisoned by right wing media.

And sure, both left and right sources can come out with misinformation, and it could have a damaging influence, or other kinds of content may be arguably harmful.

But you kind of suspect that the real worry is (1) they don't want to compete in a free market place of ideas, where they actually have to defend their own positions, and (2) it isn't that the average Daily Mail story is just filled with lies, it's that their political punditry will involve something different to left-wing values and they hate that people could be influenced by it.

So people reading that media, well maybe even evil for agreeing with it. So it's maybe a moral snobbery in play, where they don't want to admit that people can reasonably disagree with some of their moral principles and priorities.

Or maybe it's just part of the tribal identity that you have to regularly express disgust for certain newspapers.

BlackForestCake · 06/10/2023 19:01

I mean, really it should be an embarrassment to the genderists that their doctrine is so crazy that it makes Matt Walsh look sensible.

If right wingers can easily ridicule your ideas, it doesn't necessarily mean that your ideas are perfect and left wing. It might just mean that your ideas are ridiculous.

Duffdee · 06/10/2023 19:12

“No one has said we're all right wing. I'm here, I'm not right wing. However @Duffdee said we're all left wing. That is untrue.”

Just the vast majority of posters. Not all. I can see what people here are politically by looking at all the ‘will you vote Tory now’ threads.

I think most posters here are centre left liberals, the sort of people who would have read a sanctimonious left wing rag like the Guardian in the past. I think they probably just didn’t understand where their ideology would lead and are now upset that it has lead them to where we are now. Yet they still don’t seem to see that this was simply the road they drove down.

Politically I would describe myself as small ‘c’ conservative in the Burkean sense. I would therefore never vote Tory either because I see them as just another soft liberal left party that is on exactly the same road as Labour but they’re just not as far down that road, yet. But the Tories will get there too. Labour will get into power, implement their policies and when people are sick of Labour they will elect the Tories again who will then announce that they have changed and they will ‘conservative’ all Labour’s policies just like Cameron confined Blair’s policies.

MadderthanMorris · 06/10/2023 19:15

I don't read Daily Mail articles. If I open a thread because the title looks interesting and the OP has a link to the Mail and then a point stemming from that, I close the thread and don't take part.

I've known people who worked for them. Much of it is LITERALLY lies. That which isn't is so deeply about manipulation towards political agendas that they're not being open about, that I just can't be bothered. Why put the time into discussion of a point, when there is so little reason to believe the point itself is even true in the first place?

I'll read a Telegraph or Times article, with awareness of the bias behind them. But I resent the idea that simply because something exists in the mainstream media, and has that kind of "traditional" stamp of respectability, I have to entertain what it says. Much of the mainstream media is just unadulterated bullshit. Most of it is dishonest. You make your own judgments about what to be wary about, and what is so far beyond the pale that it doesn't even merit your attention. For me, the Mail is the latter.

It's the newsprint version of the smelly old nutter at the back of the bus raving about immigrants. Sure, he's got as much right to be on the bus as anybody. But there's no law saying I have to sit next to him and listen to what he says.

EasternStandard · 06/10/2023 19:22

MadderthanMorris · 06/10/2023 19:15

I don't read Daily Mail articles. If I open a thread because the title looks interesting and the OP has a link to the Mail and then a point stemming from that, I close the thread and don't take part.

I've known people who worked for them. Much of it is LITERALLY lies. That which isn't is so deeply about manipulation towards political agendas that they're not being open about, that I just can't be bothered. Why put the time into discussion of a point, when there is so little reason to believe the point itself is even true in the first place?

I'll read a Telegraph or Times article, with awareness of the bias behind them. But I resent the idea that simply because something exists in the mainstream media, and has that kind of "traditional" stamp of respectability, I have to entertain what it says. Much of the mainstream media is just unadulterated bullshit. Most of it is dishonest. You make your own judgments about what to be wary about, and what is so far beyond the pale that it doesn't even merit your attention. For me, the Mail is the latter.

It's the newsprint version of the smelly old nutter at the back of the bus raving about immigrants. Sure, he's got as much right to be on the bus as anybody. But there's no law saying I have to sit next to him and listen to what he says.

To be fair The Guardian has lost its way too

I’m pretty choosy with what I consume. Media and food (tongue in cheek)

But there are some gems out there. Radio mostly these days

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2023 19:27

https://quillette.com/2022/05/19/gender-ideologys-true-believers/

Posting this from the other thread its just been put on in case people here aren't following both threads.

Bits I quoted on that thread:

Lifton identified eight psychological themes underpinning thought reform—which is to say the ideological coercion (or, more colloquially, “brainwashing”) that happens in cults as well as totalitarian states.

The first is “milieu control,” the severing of communication with those who challenge the group’s beliefs.

No one is told not to communicate with outsiders or read opposing views—they don’t have to be. Followers may even occasionally make a point of checking out the opposing views of “TERFs” (a term of abuse that stands for “trans-exclusionary radical feminist”) to prove they can refute them, but the act is a charade. A dutiful scroll through a “TERF” essay is “reading” in quote marks, with a mind fully shut. Opening one’s thinking to opposing views would not only throw into question the group’s ideology, but jeopardize the follower’s treasured sense of belonging and purpose. The follower identifies so completely with the group that challenges to it are perceived as an existential assault—even “violence,” as trans activists will claim.

“The demand for purity” also stands out among Lifton’s criteria. The group drums into the follower the idea that she or he is guilty or unworthy in some way, and can only hope to alleviate this feeling of culpability by embarking on a futile pursuit of perfection.

“Loading the language” and “sacred science,” two more of Lifton’s criteria, could have been written with trans activism in mind. The group’s dogmas are cast as the latest frontier in scientific knowledge and cannot be questioned.

Lifton noted that thought reform is characterized by a reliance on the “thought-terminating cliché” and transformation of language. New words convey the group’s insights while existing words are given new meaning. “Non-binary,” “cishet,” “genderqueer,” and “genderfluid” are just the beginning of today’s new lexicon.

Proceeding down Lifton’s eight-point list: Under the headings of “doctrine over person” and “dispensing of existence,” we get some of his most chilling observations. The doctrine prevails over any individual human’s life, which becomes essentially expendable. If an individual’s experience contradicts the group’s doctrine, that person’s reality must be manipulated so the doctrine is vindicated. And so detransitioners, whose harrowing personal accounts impugn trans ideology, are shrugged away with some version of the explanation, “They were obviously never really trans to begin with.” Even though this directly contradicts a core tenet of trans ideology—“If someone says they’re trans, believe them”—the sanctity of the doctrine is nominally affirmed and the individual is disappeared. The media silencing of detransitioners and desisters is one of the most disturbing reflections of the obeisance commanded by trans activists, never mind the women, men, and children who suffer as a result of their dogmas.

Every totalitarian or authoritarian group or movement—and cults are crystallized authoritarianism—coheres in opposition to a group that it hates. This was the particular insight of the Frankfurt School, some of whose intellects observed in The Authoritarian Personality that “[the] authoritarian must [their emphasis], out of an inner necessity, turn his aggression against out-groups.”

The whole Left V Right thing is cultish too btw. (Not going to repeat myself too much).

I am tired of it.

MadderthanMorris · 06/10/2023 19:34

@EasternStandard Yep, definitely problems with the Guardian. But I'd put that in a more similar place to the Times - to be read for information, while being as aware as possible of the likely biases involved. It's nowhere near the sheer post-truth insanity of the Mail.

EasternStandard · 06/10/2023 19:36

MadderthanMorris · 06/10/2023 19:34

@EasternStandard Yep, definitely problems with the Guardian. But I'd put that in a more similar place to the Times - to be read for information, while being as aware as possible of the likely biases involved. It's nowhere near the sheer post-truth insanity of the Mail.

Actually I think it is post-truth, for sure

It uses stats and information badly for their agenda

TooBigForMyBoots · 06/10/2023 19:45

RedToothBrush · 06/10/2023 18:23

Exactly.

Its authoritarian left wing gatekeeping nonsense.

"Thou shalt not read the Daily Mail as it is full of sin and thoughts that will corrupt your mind."

Its controlling paternalism.

The general public must not be exposed to 'wrongthink' because they won't be able to cope with it and will be brainwashed into having the wrong views.

How about having a proper political debate which doesn't indulge in this shutting down of 'difficult' subjects.

No one has said thou shalt not read the Daily Mail You made that up. And who is gatekeeping what?

I was asked why I consider this the most RW forum on Mnet. Predominantly, because of the Tory support and crazy, sometimes misogynistic response to criticism of them. And other things including the media consumed or dismissed out of hand. Surely the critical thinkers amongst us understand the media is not an insignificant thing.

I have asked what forum on Mnet is more RW than this one. No one has answered. Instead they've made shit up like thou shalt not read the Daily Mail, accused me of all sorts: calling them bigots, gatekeeping and questioning the intelligence of folk when I've done no such thing.

The Tories have been a disaster for women's rights. They continue to be a disaster for women's rights. This is not a controversial opinion for feminists to hold.🤷‍♀️

TooBigForMyBoots · 06/10/2023 19:54

MargotBamborough · 06/10/2023 08:07

Who should feminists vote for then?

The Tories?

Or the people who don't think we should be allowed to exist?

Is this the sort of authoritarian "your either with us or against us" you were talking about @RedToothBrush?

RebelliousCow · 06/10/2023 19:57

TooBigForMyBoots · 06/10/2023 17:07

The title of this thread is Is anyone else GC and left wing in their politics? Why would that question need to be asked if FWR was left wing.

Because many people, who I suggest are not naturally 'political' creatures, now get their opinions from social media and therefore tend to view everything in black and white terms; interpreting any criticism of contemporary leftist positions ( social justice activism and identity politics), and any defence of people such as Kemi Badenoch, as being evil right wing bigots and reactionary zealots.

RebelliousCow · 06/10/2023 19:59

TooBigForMyBoots · 06/10/2023 19:54

Is this the sort of authoritarian "your either with us or against us" you were talking about @RedToothBrush?

I asked you earlier how you were defining Left and Right wing? I'll ask again. Can you give a couple of clear examples?

TooBigForMyBoots · 06/10/2023 20:00

Duffdee · 06/10/2023 12:30

“Fran2023 · Today 10:16

@Duffdee’Of course the same parties that fought for women’s liberation are going to fight for trans rights.’

There is no ‘of course’ about it. It is obvious that Trans rights tramples all over women’s rights. Anyone with an ounce of understanding can see that.”

Oh yes there is. Think these thoughts through to the end and it’s clear where this form of liberal unfettered individualism leads. The rights of the individual will trump group rights and groups will have to make space and be inclusive for all individuals. That’s what has always happened in the U.K. since the 1960’s. Society will make space for trans people and then society will be making space for some other group of people next until everyone can just be whoever they want to be.

Unless the political right wins big across the western world that is. Then things will start moving in a very different direction to how they have been moving for the last 3 or 4 generations. But I’ve no doubt most feminists will vote for parties that support individualism which will of course include trans rights.

I believe the west is in a period of political crisis right now which will be resolved and result in a new consensus. If feminists help the right beat the left and the right do win this then the next forty years won’t look anything like the last forty. Society will drift rightwards for decades regardless of whoever is in power if their ideas become the new consensus in exactly the same way as society’s across the west have shifted toward liberal individualism regardless of who is in power for decades now.

What is your view of what would happen if feminists help the right beat the left? And what individualism will women have to cede to the group?

RebelliousCow · 06/10/2023 20:02

TooBigForMyBoots · 06/10/2023 17:36

I have never demanded that because I don't give a shit about the Labour Party. I do post on threads, criticising the Tory government's record on women's rights and reminding people of the threat from TRAs in the sitting government.

How are you defining " women's rights"?

RebelliousCow · 06/10/2023 20:04

TooBigForMyBoots · 06/10/2023 20:00

What is your view of what would happen if feminists help the right beat the left? And what individualism will women have to cede to the group?

Am I correct in thinking you define Leftist politics as the politics of group identity, and right wing politics as the politics of the individual?

SerafinasGoose · 06/10/2023 20:08

Gender Ideology is nothing approximating 'the left' that I've ever known.

How could it be? It's male supremacism.

EasternStandard · 06/10/2023 20:14

The left has seemed to embrace it though

I don’t particularly mean posters here but the media and politicians

TooBigForMyBoots · 06/10/2023 20:14

RebelliousCow · 06/10/2023 20:04

Am I correct in thinking you define Leftist politics as the politics of group identity, and right wing politics as the politics of the individual?

No, you are not correct. I am referring to the post I quoted and asking the poster for clarification.

TooBigForMyBoots · 06/10/2023 20:15

SerafinasGoose · 06/10/2023 20:08

Gender Ideology is nothing approximating 'the left' that I've ever known.

How could it be? It's male supremacism.

I agree.

MargotBamborough · 06/10/2023 20:18

TooBigForMyBoots · 06/10/2023 19:54

Is this the sort of authoritarian "your either with us or against us" you were talking about @RedToothBrush?

No, this is me asking which party I can vote for which will respect and uphold women's rights. The female kind of women.

Any ideas?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/10/2023 20:19

Surprised to see anyone claiming that FWR is the most RW board on Mumsnet.
Maybe more reading & listening and less pontificating on the evil of others is needed?

MillenialAvocado · 06/10/2023 20:25

Me, and I absolutely hate being lumped into the "right-wing conspiracy theorist" category.

TooBigForMyBoots · 06/10/2023 20:35

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/10/2023 20:19

Surprised to see anyone claiming that FWR is the most RW board on Mumsnet.
Maybe more reading & listening and less pontificating on the evil of others is needed?

I don't pontificate on the evil of others. I criticise the Tories. Stop making shit up.

TooBigForMyBoots · 06/10/2023 20:38

MargotBamborough · 06/10/2023 20:18

No, this is me asking which party I can vote for which will respect and uphold women's rights. The female kind of women.

Any ideas?

No. You'll need to check with your candidates at election time. It's definitely not the Tories though. Have you seen their record on women's rights I er the past 13 years?

It's disgusting on every level.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/10/2023 20:40

TooBigForMyBoots · 06/10/2023 20:35

I don't pontificate on the evil of others. I criticise the Tories. Stop making shit up.

You said:
"I was asked why I consider this the most RW forum on Mnet. Predominantly, because of the Tory support and crazy, sometimes misogynistic response to criticism of them. And other things including the media consumed or dismissed out of hand. Surely the critical thinkers amongst us understand the media is not an insignificant thing.
I have asked what forum on Mnet is more RW than this one".

Hence me suggesting more listening ears 😂

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