Page 13 | Would you vote Tory if Kemi Badenoch was Tory the party leader and the election was tomorrow?

lechiffre55 · 2023-10-03T12:39:21+00:00

Just curious to see what the answers here might be. Would you vote Tory if Kemi Badenoch was the Tory party leader and the election was tomorrow? Feel free to answer any way you like, and I don't care about derailing. The question is quite tongue in cheek, don't take it too seriously, and have fun with it if you want, rant if you want. I'm trying to get a picture of the MN mood.

MadderthanMorris · 03/10/2023 23:28

@ILikeDungs your claim to approve of GI over fascism is completely bizarre.

Well firstly that wasn't my claim. What I said was that GI is bad (ie, I DON'T "approve" of it) but fascism is worse.

Secondly there's nothing bizarre about it, you're only seeing it that way because you're fixated on the one narrow issue of GI, and interpreting "fascism" through its lens. Fascism is much larger than that, with its focus being authoritarian control of society as a whole - ie the suspension or suppression of democracy - not just authoritarian attitudes in relation to any one particular cultural issue.

Once again: It's the Tories who have been IN POWER for the last 13 years, and have enacted specific anti-democratic measures into law. For sure, I'm not optimistic about the likelihood of Labour reversing that trend, but the fact remains the movement towards it so far is the Tories' doing.

Fawful · 03/10/2023 23:36

Fuck no.

Hurrydash · 03/10/2023 23:58

MadderthanMorris · 03/10/2023 23:28

@ILikeDungs your claim to approve of GI over fascism is completely bizarre.

Well firstly that wasn't my claim. What I said was that GI is bad (ie, I DON'T "approve" of it) but fascism is worse.

Secondly there's nothing bizarre about it, you're only seeing it that way because you're fixated on the one narrow issue of GI, and interpreting "fascism" through its lens. Fascism is much larger than that, with its focus being authoritarian control of society as a whole - ie the suspension or suppression of democracy - not just authoritarian attitudes in relation to any one particular cultural issue.

Once again: It's the Tories who have been IN POWER for the last 13 years, and have enacted specific anti-democratic measures into law. For sure, I'm not optimistic about the likelihood of Labour reversing that trend, but the fact remains the movement towards it so far is the Tories' doing.

So what is your point?

Are you saying the UK is a fascist state?

If not, is it relevant whether fascism is worse than suppressing women's rights.

If so, maybe you need to re-examine the definition of fascism.

nettie434 · 04/10/2023 00:03

I quite admire the way she doesn't support the popular viewpoint and decides how she will vote on a case by case decision. However, she seems to have very little insight into the role of politicians in shaping voters' reactions. I could never vote for her she seems to be a paid up member of the 'I have learned nothing from my previous experience' club.

Rudderneck · 04/10/2023 01:51

bombastix · 03/10/2023 19:32

You want your government to have a final say. Good luck. The operation of power of both right and left shows the evil that can be perpetrated.

I know there are good Tories who don't believe this stuff. Who won't overthrow something that we did as a nation.

The GRA is primary legislation and can be revised.

Do not listen to the whistlers on immigration and rejection of the ECHR.

They want power for themselves. They will tell you that it's all what the people want. But if you want that, you don't want law that applies fairly, or away from the judiciary.

Law is what separates us from pure power; in this country it gives freedom of speech, a fair trial, freedom from torture and basic rights to life so that governments could not persecute minorities, pick on racial characteristics or sexual preference. It means I can't lawfully be taken away by secret police as is possible in many other countries in the world. And it means that the government, if it wishes to impinge on my rights must justify that in law.

If you are a liberal person you will see this stuff for what it is. I am with the people who ask for answers and what would be better.

This is not some sort of left wing conspiracy. It was done out of a recognition that government, left or right, abuse their power.

The primacy of Parliament is fundamental to the system. There are built in institutions to help provide stability, and counter the natural tendency of democratic systems to fall into chaos, which is certainly a good thing.

Some kind of institutional set up to deal with human rights questions could certainly be included in that. Though I would say the idea that a written constitution is going to make things better is not at all clear from the examples we can see, on the contrary, it can be inflexible, unadaptable, and when errors are made in formulating it - which will certainly happen - it can be almost impossible to change.

The beautiful thing about case law built up over time is that it involves a plethora of concrete examples, with specific circumstances, and the active principles must be extrapolated from all of the examples and applied to whatever the real case under consideration is. It is much less a snapshot of a moment in time than any explicit written constitution. and therefore much more stabilizing.

Be that as it may, the only advantage to kicking cases to a court or institution that exists above the state level is to reduce the level of influence citizens have on their own state. Of course that doesn't mean that no one then has influence of that supra-national institution - it doesn't exist outside the human sphere.

And given that this is true for all the nations which are under this kind of institution, what you need to ask is - if it's not the citizens of each nation who are determining the nature of the institution - who the hell is it? Because it absolutely is someone.

anyolddinosaur · 04/10/2023 06:38

Dear Tory bots

Why dont you focus on reducing the disaster you face at this election rather than the next leader. You need to reach an agreement with junior doctors - like yesterday. There wont be a lot of sympathy for consultants but there is for juniors. Not even talking to them shows how out of touch you are / how much you want to further privatise the NHS.

Then you still havent done enough to reverse woke. Kemi talks sense on this but I dont know what her policies would be on other issues and no you cant put someone more right wing in charge of the party. Being too right wing is what is losing you this election. Parties win by holding the middle ground, by convincing people they are more competent than the opposition and by making people better off. The right wing idiots you have put in charge of the party have failed on all 3. Shut Liz Truss up, tell Jacob Rees Mogg to keep his mouth shut - they bear some responsibility for this mess and you are letting them appear on tv. If you could persuade Kate Bingham to be PM you might appear competent.

EasternStandard · 04/10/2023 06:40

anyolddinosaur · 04/10/2023 06:38

Dear Tory bots

Why dont you focus on reducing the disaster you face at this election rather than the next leader. You need to reach an agreement with junior doctors - like yesterday. There wont be a lot of sympathy for consultants but there is for juniors. Not even talking to them shows how out of touch you are / how much you want to further privatise the NHS.

Then you still havent done enough to reverse woke. Kemi talks sense on this but I dont know what her policies would be on other issues and no you cant put someone more right wing in charge of the party. Being too right wing is what is losing you this election. Parties win by holding the middle ground, by convincing people they are more competent than the opposition and by making people better off. The right wing idiots you have put in charge of the party have failed on all 3. Shut Liz Truss up, tell Jacob Rees Mogg to keep his mouth shut - they bear some responsibility for this mess and you are letting them appear on tv. If you could persuade Kate Bingham to be PM you might appear competent.

To Labour bot.

Why don’t you post without the usual

EasternStandard · 04/10/2023 06:48

Rudderneck · 04/10/2023 01:51

The primacy of Parliament is fundamental to the system. There are built in institutions to help provide stability, and counter the natural tendency of democratic systems to fall into chaos, which is certainly a good thing.

Some kind of institutional set up to deal with human rights questions could certainly be included in that. Though I would say the idea that a written constitution is going to make things better is not at all clear from the examples we can see, on the contrary, it can be inflexible, unadaptable, and when errors are made in formulating it - which will certainly happen - it can be almost impossible to change.

The beautiful thing about case law built up over time is that it involves a plethora of concrete examples, with specific circumstances, and the active principles must be extrapolated from all of the examples and applied to whatever the real case under consideration is. It is much less a snapshot of a moment in time than any explicit written constitution. and therefore much more stabilizing.

Be that as it may, the only advantage to kicking cases to a court or institution that exists above the state level is to reduce the level of influence citizens have on their own state. Of course that doesn't mean that no one then has influence of that supra-national institution - it doesn't exist outside the human sphere.

And given that this is true for all the nations which are under this kind of institution, what you need to ask is - if it's not the citizens of each nation who are determining the nature of the institution - who the hell is it? Because it absolutely is someone.

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Very good post.

With all these complexities there’s no this is the only good

Look at the outcomes in various countries. Gun laws that are hard to change, gender laws that damage women and are hard to change, migration straining established systems

I also see the argument if not in ECHR not well respected on human rights, when that isn’t the case for a fair few countries who top the list

Although I question the grading and if it includes gender ideology which is pro men not pro women’s rights. Maybe that assessment should change.

xxyzz · 04/10/2023 07:16

MadderthanMorris · 03/10/2023 17:25

A dictatorship of the right. An authoritarian political system within a capitalist, private-ownership economic system.

Government by dictatorship rather than democratic mandate. Whether that involves the literal termination of democratic process (as in an actual fascist state, like Nazi Germany), or just the suppression, perversion and corruption of that process to the point that it becomes largely meaningless (eg through criminalising peaceful protest and introducing laws to manipulate the scope of the electorate in your favour, as in a fascist tendency like that of the Tories in current-day Britain). That latter can turn very quickly into the former and it astounds me that more people don't see where we're actually at in that respect. In the USA it very nearly happened - it WOULD have happened if events on the capitol had transpired slightly differently. And yet Trump is still highly popular and quite likely to become president again.

And cultural factors such as:

A tendency toward authoritarianism and the importance of obedience. Suppressing dissent and freedom of thought and expression.

Government control of the media (again, whether by legal dictat or simply what we have, by unity of purpose between the government and the small number of very rich individuals who happen to own almost all the "free" press).

Strong dependance on propaganda rather than rational thought and debate. Cynical and manipulative use of forceful repetition of things that are either plainly untrue or lacking evidence, to make them "true" (Hitler's "big lie"; Jeremy Corbyn's "antisemitism"; Johnson's Covid parties-not-parties).

Scapegoating of minorities and divisive manipulation of public opinion against those minorities, exploiting racism, nationalism & cultural myths etc. Distrust of jusidicial thoroughness and appealing instead to peoples' desire for simple, strong and quick solutions.

PP are right to point out that some of these cultural factors are strong in the current Labour party as well, and I won't be voting for them either. Starmer is an authoritarian through and through. The post-war democratic consensus is basically in meltdown and its institutions have been / are being corrupted beyond the point of being able to deliver their original objectives.

But the Tories are the pits. And the right of the Tories, like Badenoch, the pits of the pits.

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What an appropriate username.

I was with you through this post until you brought Saint Corbyn into the discussion, and I realised you were one of those who prove the horseshoe theory correct.

Anyone on the far left who still believes that Corbyn was unfairly maligned over antisemitism and it is all a Jewish plot to bring down the left is no whit different to the fascists you claim to oppose.

Signed, a disgusted British Jew (speaking on behalf of the 85% of British Jews who are in no doubt that Corbyn is an antisemite).

fromorbit · 04/10/2023 07:24

Interesting thread I counted up so far.

Those who said they would vote Conservative if KB was leader = 30
Those who said No [includes me] = 94
Those who said Maybe = 5

Interesting. Looks like most gender realists on mumsnet are so lefty/centrist they wouldn't vote Tory even if someone who strongly supports the idea that biology is real could be put in power.

Weird pretty sure I heard somewhere that anyone who thinks biology is real is extreme right :) In fact I heard Mumsnet was basically the most right wing place online. Yet it seems that might not be true... in fact it isn't even close. Some people seem to be lying about women's political opinions.

SaffronSpice · 04/10/2023 07:31

Dear Tory bots

This is the sort of authoritarian left attitude that puts me off voting labour. The idea that no other ideas have any worth and those voting for the Tories must be evil, fascist, racist or manipulated. It is the same process behind the imposition of gender ideology ‘scream at your opponents enough and you will intimidate them to change their mind’.

GrammarTeacher · 04/10/2023 07:32

or that the right wing ones shout loudest and comment most often?
Internationally it is clear that the far right support the GC movement so the association is there. As someone who disagrees with most on here, I have found this thread a mix of reassuring and disappointing.
Reassuring that many people regardless of stance on this issue realise there are far bigger issues facing us. Disappointing that there are some that can see everything else done over the past 13 years, see the voting record of KB (freely available online) and yet still at they believe they're better for women.
But according to Glinner I'm just a 'spicy straight' so what would I know.

SaffronSpice · 04/10/2023 07:33

How can labour improve things for women if it destroys the very category of ‘woman’?

anyolddinosaur · 04/10/2023 07:41

Grow up children. The reality of politics is that the electorate generally does not want right or left wing ideology thrust at them, they want centrist, they want leaders who will will do what is best for the country generally and not just their mates, they want more money in their pockets - and they want to be healthy enough to work.

Politics is the art of the possible, if tories want to "revert to tory values" they'll lose the next election AND the one after, unless Starmer turns out to be even more incompetent than Liz Truss. The markets would not tolerate her, they wont tolerate an openly more right wing tory government. Right wing tories used to be more intelligent and much better at concealing their aims from the electorate.

And the person upthread who mentioned Ken Clarke - I've met him, am frankly still surprised that he had any principles but the tories who didnt make him leader were idiots.

EasternStandard · 04/10/2023 07:45

anyolddinosaur · 04/10/2023 07:41

Grow up children. The reality of politics is that the electorate generally does not want right or left wing ideology thrust at them, they want centrist, they want leaders who will will do what is best for the country generally and not just their mates, they want more money in their pockets - and they want to be healthy enough to work.

Politics is the art of the possible, if tories want to "revert to tory values" they'll lose the next election AND the one after, unless Starmer turns out to be even more incompetent than Liz Truss. The markets would not tolerate her, they wont tolerate an openly more right wing tory government. Right wing tories used to be more intelligent and much better at concealing their aims from the electorate.

And the person upthread who mentioned Ken Clarke - I've met him, am frankly still surprised that he had any principles but the tories who didnt make him leader were idiots.

Grow up children.

The bot stuff is childish

You might have a good point to make but it’s not worth reading them if starting with that

OhHolyJesus · 04/10/2023 07:45

Without wanting to sound like David Walliams, it's a Yes from me.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 04/10/2023 07:48

Nope! But then I’d never vote Tory as I don’t subscribe to their politics. Ajwsys voted Labour, now I’m homeless.

The fact that acknowledging biological reality is now seen as right wing shows just how far Labour have fucked this up

Zonder · 04/10/2023 07:49

SaffronSpice · 04/10/2023 07:31

Dear Tory bots

This is the sort of authoritarian left attitude that puts me off voting labour. The idea that no other ideas have any worth and those voting for the Tories must be evil, fascist, racist or manipulated. It is the same process behind the imposition of gender ideology ‘scream at your opponents enough and you will intimidate them to change their mind’.

Really? Well, the way the Tories have crashed the country and made so many lives so much worse off is what stops me voting Tory.

Zonder · 04/10/2023 07:49

So it's a no from me.

EasternStandard · 04/10/2023 07:50

Zonder · 04/10/2023 07:49

Really? Well, the way the Tories have crashed the country and made so many lives so much worse off is what stops me voting Tory.

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Have you voted Tory previously?

anyolddinosaur · 04/10/2023 07:56

Just posting "yes" with no reasoning is a bot thing, sorry you dont recognise it children.

EasternStandard · 04/10/2023 07:59

anyolddinosaur · 04/10/2023 07:56

Just posting "yes" with no reasoning is a bot thing, sorry you dont recognise it children.

How on earth did you deduce that

Does it apply to a single No?

’Children’ bollocks is worse tbh

AdrianaLaCerva · 04/10/2023 08:05

Hell yes.

(Just wondering if the swear means I am or I am not a bot. It’s hard to keep track).

MadderthanMorris · 04/10/2023 08:11

@Hurrydash

So what is your point?

Are you saying the UK is a fascist state?

Not yet, no. But then, the UK is not a state run entirely according to gender ideology either.

We vote for politicians based on which future direction they are likely to take us in. For incumbent parties, it's reasonable to base that judgment on what they've done while they've been in power so far.

MadderthanMorris · 04/10/2023 08:15

xxyzz · 04/10/2023 07:16

What an appropriate username.

I was with you through this post until you brought Saint Corbyn into the discussion, and I realised you were one of those who prove the horseshoe theory correct.

Anyone on the far left who still believes that Corbyn was unfairly maligned over antisemitism and it is all a Jewish plot to bring down the left is no whit different to the fascists you claim to oppose.

Signed, a disgusted British Jew (speaking on behalf of the 85% of British Jews who are in no doubt that Corbyn is an antisemite).

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You're obviously very angry, so I'll ignore the personal insult.

Corbyn was used as one illustration of the difference between dispassionate discussion of evidence and sheer repetitive assertion. What's the evidence that Corbyn is an antisemite?