How do we find a middle ground?

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How do we find a place where it’s ok to say we believe their are transsexual people (in my lifetime it’s always been around and as far as I am aware not particularly fought against/prevented people accessing services/given equal rights) generally these people (who I totally support and would advocate for) appeared to me to want to go under the radar and just live their lives. I’d have NO issues sharing a bathroom with these people.

What shifted? Why is it now a case that we are bullied into accepting a man (with a beard who in every way looks and acts like a man) as a woman?

I thought in the 90s we accepted that what you wear, your hobbies, who you slept with and career choice did not define you. I was never girlie, wore boys jeans but at no point did I think I was a boy or prevented progressing my life.

We now have men that define themselves as women by going backwards in stereotypes, basically the clothes define the man.

The levels of irony baffle me ‘sex doesn’t exist, but if I wear heels I’m a woman’ ‘don’t assume or judge, but if you don’t assume correctly I’ll punch you’ and my favourite ‘I’m a non-binary lesbian’

The ironic thing is (and sorry if this offends anyone) I never coined myself as a feminist. I genuinely thought the previous amazing women had won the war, I earned equally or out earned my male counterparts, I never felt being a women provided me different opportunities to my brother, if anything maybe a tiny advantage.

But now I feel that all that has been pointless and at 41 I’ve become a feminist because I NEED too. Is this not such a rewind in society. I was genuinely a little nervous today at taking a book to the counter (material girls) a bloody (amazing) book, but a book.

How do we rationalise this?

Sorry for the long post but I am genuinely lost at the next steps to take.

Fantastic. Post op transsexuals are completely safe. Brilliant news. We can all sleep more soundly at night with this knowledge.

How do we allow them to use women's toilets, with or without a "special permit" whilst keeping dangerous sex offenders who do have penises out of them, given that nobody actually polices access to toilets?

it’s really important that some men are allowed into the women’s loos.

Exactly. Some men must have access. Women cannot be permitted to have a space that excludes them.

I genuinely believe that some people really have a problem with women excluding men.

Look at the patterns. They take the most female centric places possible and target them.

The Women's March, breastfeeding forums, rape refuges, stillborn baby support groups, ffs.

It's very important to make women understand that their spaces, boundaries and decisions are all subject to male permission.

India Willoughby is a famously post op tw. India boasted how they walked miles out of their way to avoid gender neutral toilets in order to use the women's.

India who enthusiastically shrieked at middle aged women 'I am a real woman, just let that penetrate', claims they have a cervix and are biologically female.

This is an example of the sort of individual you're talking about GodessOfThunder. Someone who positively delights in not only violating women's boundaries, but takes to Twitter to boast about it.

The sort of harmless, decent 'post op transsexual' you're talking about presumably wouldn't dream of discomforting or distressing women by using their spaces.

Decent men won't do it.

Snigger.

Yes. What constitutes 'true trans' and how is this different to 'opportunist male'? How do we go about assessing that? Is it all about penises?

I mean, I thought we'd got past the dated notion that the only abuse that is 'real' is physical abuse with bruises and all that shit and rape is only rape if a woman puts up physical resistance in 2023. (We definitely haven't but that's what we are told has happened).

And I find in funny that male violence and abuse against women is framed as a woman's problem, but also male violence and abuse against men is also somehow framed as women's problem to deal with and budge up to accommodate males, which includes some of the opportunistic ones the female victims of male crimes were trying to avoid in the first place - without thought of the implications of this.

It's never a male problem to confront and deal with amongst themselves.

The trans widow paradox neatly sums up some of the issues for me.

If a transwidow has been emotionally or physically abused by her transitioning partner, where can they go for help and support if domestic abuse charities insist on being trans inclusive?

The transwoman somehow is more 'womanly vulnerable' for women's domestic abuse charities cos trans than actual women, because of funding and political pressure rather than there being two distinctly different needs and patterns identified (ironically this is arguably to the detriment of transwomen themselves if they are using DV facilities to escape harm rather than for validation of their identity or to harm women....)

Indeed the very nature transition may be part of the actual abuse because it asks for women to say night is day and for the boundaries of women to be ignored under the cloud of emotional blackmail and duress.

The issue of sexual abuse involving a penis may become somewhat irrelevant here. (But hey no one asks the woman about her sexuality and whether she'd be happy with a lack of penis in her married life either do they? They just have to stay married or divorce rather than be allowed an annulment exit clause).

What we have are men asking to be safe from other males and 'safe' from the thought crime of women identifying them accurately as men because of male trauma.

Where's the visibility and awareness of female trauma going on here? Where are women safe?

Hello. Wakey wakey.

We should not have the mentality that default human is male, and therefore women are not worthy of the same rights because they aren't default human.

Lots of women don't want to be in an environment where they may be in a state of undress around males because of the removal of a layer of protection against opportunism and then the danger of being criminalised or targeted for challenging a situation involving a male in which they feel uncomfortable (which wouldn't happen at all with sex segregation).

That should be enough. Cos sex matters. And sex is real. And being female leaves you sexually vulnerable.

Transwomen are men. They are not whatever they say they are. That's the removal of women's ability to describe themselves - that's a removal of women's boundaries right there to remove the power to name themselves and organise themselves on the basis of sex. Saying it's a privilege not protection strategy is really the height of deliberately failing to understand male violence and abuse against women and girls - and this isn't something women are in control of.

I really, really wish that @GodessOfThunder would listen to any of the the incredibly powerful things that you are posting, @Datun. Personally, I cannot understand why anyone decent would expect women to put the demands of men over their own safety and dignity. Any male born individual who thinks their need for validation matters more than the trauma of women who have suffered rape, sexual abuse or domestic abuse, and that they belong in a women-only rape crisis centre or domestic abuse shelter, is basically another abuser, even if they do nothing other than simply be there.

Any male born individual who thinks their need for validation matters more than the health needs of women who want or need their care to be provided by another biological woman, is equally abusive and selfish.

Any male born individual who looks at any of the things that women have fought so hard for, over centuries (their own sports, awards and scholarships, anything intended to encourage more women into highest management or STEM subjects and industries), and ignores the fact that women need these things because society is still patriarchal and men are still advantaged over women - and then decides to 'identify' as a woman in order to rob women of these things that they need - they are pretty vile too.

Basically these men do not care that their actions are taking things away from women - not frivolous things either, but vital things such as healthcare (if they can't be treated by a man), rape crisis and sexual abuse treatment and support, things that will help make women more equal in society, safe spaces to get changed or go to the loo. That is all acceptable collateral damage to them, and makes every last one of them despicable.

What I cannot understand is the wilful blindness of some women who are not only not fighting back against this destruction of women's rights, but are actively supporting it and giving away what their mothers and grandmothers fought so hard for.

I also wonder which loos @GodessOfThunder thinks should be used by the trans women who have a vaginoplasty but still retain their penis too?

It happens. There are surgeons doing 'penis sparing vaginoplasties'.

Has godesofthunder come back with any studies that show at all that males at any stage of transition are less likely of committing sexual offences than the whole male UK population?

Also, have they answered why a specific subset of males without penises are allowed and not that ALL males without penises (ie, those men who have had their penises removed due to injury or disease etc) should be accessing female single sex spaces if they feel like it?

No??? Yet they have doubled down and continue to attempt to portray these male individuals as being some how special that they should access female single sex spaces set up for safety and privacy for female people.

Considering that they have really just shown that they cannot land one point that is either evidenced, relevant, coherent or cohesive, I would expect them to start.

Is there offence data for post op specifically?

I don't know. I repeat the request though.

Do you have any evidence that males at ANY stage in their transition are less likely to commit sexual offences than ALL males in the UK population?

Aren't you the one trying to argue that they should be allowed special dispensation for accessing female single sex spaces where no other male has the right to access? Or have I misread your posts?

no post-op in loos cos men, but why?

I’m not bothered about “any stage”.

Im bothered about post-op.

Erm.

Because they are men!

I'm sorry this conversation is too hard for you to understand.

How come so many straight males like having sex with transsexuals if they’re not women, eh?

Do you have any evidence that males at ANY stage in their transition are less likely to commit sexual offences than ALL males in the UK population?

Surely you have some evidence? Why are you here arguing that a special group of male people get special access to female single sex spaces?

Lol. They don't.

men who have sex with other men aren't straight.

I’m not bothered about “any stage”.

Im bothered about post-op.

Do you understand that most trans women never actually have the "op"?

Given that we can't tell who has and who hasn't unless they take their clothes off, but statistically we know they are 90% likely to still have a penis, wouldn't you say it's reasonable to assume they all still have one?

2 reasons:

1. Because they are men.

2. Because nobody can tell a post op man from any other man as they are all men.

FUCK!

Did you really just post this?

This is hilarious as an addition to your list of twists and turns here.

Hey wims!!! male people who declare they are women are just like us because other male people who define themselves as 'straight' fuck them!

Hey wims!!! That a male person's self defined sexual orientation then defines who a woman is, is the new twist for the afternoon!!!

Brilliant. Keep them coming. We need new Bingo cards.

Because men are of the male sex and women are of the female sex and facilities designated for one sex are designated for one sex.

Gender is irrelevant - sex is sex, and gender feelings do not change it. Not does surgery, nor do hormones.

Specifically, facilities for women are intended to keep women in vulnerable situations - particularly while wholly or partly undressed - safe from hostile and predatory male action (which we all get far too much of throughout out lives) by keeping males out.

As you know perfectly well. Your repeated fetishistic references to examining genitals is a splendid example of the sort of problems women wish to avoid.

Seeing as transsexual people already use women’s loos, has a transsexual person ever attacked a natal woman in one?

Do you have any evidence that males at ANY stage in their transition are less likely to commit sexual offences than ALL males in the UK population?

Because they're not actually straight.

YES.

How do you not know this?

How many cases?