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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

MPs who believe ‘women have a penis’ will be named and shamed ahead of general election

495 replies

fromorbit · 24/09/2023 09:53

Brilliant plan sure plenty of Mumsnetters will be up for being part of the volunteer army asking questions:

An “army” of volunteers in an apolitical new grassroots campaign is gearing up to meet all MPs and parliamentary candidates at hustings events and on their doorsteps to ask each one the question: “What is a woman?”

Their answers will be video recorded and uploaded individually to a website which is being launched in the coming months.

It will allow voters to find out instantly whether their next MP thinks women must be born female and that binary biological sex cannot be changed, or whether they believe that male-born transgender women are women too.

Sharron Davies MBE, the former Olympic swimmer and feminist campaigner who has been appointed as the campaign’s first ambassador, said it would let voters “know if their MP will stand up for women”.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/23/mps-believe-women-penis-named-trans-election-sharron-davies/

We also need a women's issues hustings in every constituency in the election run by people who know what women are. Women Won't Wheesht (WWW) have already run the prototype in Rutherglen [the hustings was reinstated after an attempt to cancel it after they realised banning women's meetings is in fact illegal.]
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4899435-womens-group-hustings-for-rutherglen-hamilton-west-byelection-cancelled

MPs who believe ‘women have a penis’ will be named and shamed ahead of general election

A new website will allow voters to instantly find out whether their MP thinks women must be born female

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/23/mps-believe-women-penis-named-trans-election-sharron-davies

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
IcakethereforeIam · 28/09/2023 14:11

Nope, red circle ain't GC. Did you not see Matt Walsh's doc? He's red circle. He's no feminist. GC reject gender stereotypes, it's literally in the name!

EasternStandard · 28/09/2023 14:11

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 14:09

It could just as usefully be framed as the same old "if you don't agree with me you are a labour supporting, TWAW TRA" argument.

It's not helpful.

Some people People on both the left and right are gender critical. Some people on both the left and right are TWAW.

If Labour and Conservative are the same on this then neither will come out ahead

Pretty much all your objections aren’t holding up

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 14:13

MargotBamborough · 28/09/2023 13:36

I know everyone is hostile towards women, Adam. It would be lovely if there were a party to vote for which wasn't fucking hostile towards women.

The reason for the double standards is because Labour's whole thing is that the Tories are evil and nasty whereas they are good and kind and progressive.

So I would expect a party that identifies as good and kind and progressive to be less fucking hostile towards women.

I don't think Labour identifies as "good and kind" any more than the conservatives identify as "nasty and cruel".
I think you are protecting how you feel about what Labour voters say when they explain why they vote Labour.

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 14:16

EasternStandard · 28/09/2023 14:11

If Labour and Conservative are the same on this then neither will come out ahead

Pretty much all your objections aren’t holding up

Eh? I agree with you. There is no point to the campaign as neither will come out ahead IF they are judged to the same standard.
The real point of the campaign is to create a talking point so people focus on why they don't trust opposition parties (as shown here). It's PR and not to do with supporting women.
Not sure how this "doesn't stack up". I'd say your arguments don't stack up. Because it seems to build down to "ask politicians, record their answers but if they are left wing they are lying unless they say TWAW so ignore it"

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 14:22

IcakethereforeIam · 28/09/2023 14:11

Nope, red circle ain't GC. Did you not see Matt Walsh's doc? He's red circle. He's no feminist. GC reject gender stereotypes, it's literally in the name!

Semantics.
Transgender people put gender at the centre of defining humans
Both GC feminists and religious, "conservative" ideologies put sex as more important.
Therefore boards like this attract both GC feminists and "conservative" people.

I have no interest in watching/reading Walsh because I don't need input from someone who doesn't believe in global warming and thinks abortion should be restricted, just because we both happen to agree that biological sex is a useful way to define humans.

EasternStandard · 28/09/2023 14:22

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 14:16

Eh? I agree with you. There is no point to the campaign as neither will come out ahead IF they are judged to the same standard.
The real point of the campaign is to create a talking point so people focus on why they don't trust opposition parties (as shown here). It's PR and not to do with supporting women.
Not sure how this "doesn't stack up". I'd say your arguments don't stack up. Because it seems to build down to "ask politicians, record their answers but if they are left wing they are lying unless they say TWAW so ignore it"

You are contradicting your earlier post

I'm GC but not at all happy with a campaign that increases the chances of a Tory government

Both sets of MPs can answer. Your belief is there’s no difference between left and right. In that case they have equal chance of not messing up or vice versa

I disagree as Labour is and has been more exposed due to actual statements but you feel differently, you don’t think they are

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 14:27

How is that contradictory?
I'm not happy with the campaign, because it's political and not about women's rights, I've said that since the start of the thread. (Edited to add, I've actually become more sceptical as the thread progresses due to the absolute inability of anyone to explain why its helpful, other than to confirm their own suspicions wrt to certain MPs/parties)

I don't think the information that comes out is going to change anyone's views, because of the entrenched beliefs thar Labour can't be trusted/woman = adult human female being the conservative party line. I've also said this since the start of the thread.

I have never said anything about relative proportions and I actually don't think either side can "mess up" due to the above. So that's an incorrect extrapolation on your part.

Maybe you can explain what you think this campaign usefully adds?

EasternStandard · 28/09/2023 14:29

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 14:27

How is that contradictory?
I'm not happy with the campaign, because it's political and not about women's rights, I've said that since the start of the thread. (Edited to add, I've actually become more sceptical as the thread progresses due to the absolute inability of anyone to explain why its helpful, other than to confirm their own suspicions wrt to certain MPs/parties)

I don't think the information that comes out is going to change anyone's views, because of the entrenched beliefs thar Labour can't be trusted/woman = adult human female being the conservative party line. I've also said this since the start of the thread.

I have never said anything about relative proportions and I actually don't think either side can "mess up" due to the above. So that's an incorrect extrapolation on your part.

Maybe you can explain what you think this campaign usefully adds?

Edited

It’s contradictory because you don’t think Labour is worse on GC issues

Therefore it will not help Conservatives get ahead

I’ve already have said what it adds. I, and other women, want to hear the answers.

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 14:31

The point of the campaign for voters is that they will have a better idea of the definition of woman their candidates have.

Better and clearer information for voters.

MargotBamborough · 28/09/2023 14:32

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 13:21

I think you might be getting a bit mixed up. There is a reasonable recognition that many with gender critical views have those views because they are right wing/religious.

There is a risk to GC feminists of ending up being aligned with/associated with some pretty anti-feminist people over gender issues. E.g Jordan Peterson or Dan Wootten.

I think someone posted this upthread and it's quite helpful

https://deadwildroses.com/2019/10/07/handy-venn-diagrams-the-radical-feminist-position-on-gender/

No, Adam, I think you're the one getting mixed up here.

You're close to getting it - and that Venn diagram illustrates the point nicely - but not quite getting it.

People who are opposed to gender identity theory because they are right wing/religious are not gender critical. Far from it. These are people who uphold gender norms, many of which are found in their religious texts. The kind of gender norms they choose to uphold are largely linked to biological sex in a fundamental way and focus on roles and behaviours, e.g. women are subordinate to men, a woman's place is in the home, a man's role is to provide for his family, women should bear children, women should stay at home and care for their children and when they're done with that they should care for their elderly relatives etc. There is a huge focus on women's value being in their reproductive potential, which is why younger women of childbearing age are valued as objects and post menopausal women become invisible. Given the focus on sexual reproduction, it is also not surprising that the same people who hold those beliefs often oppose homosexual relationships, access to contraception and abortion.

They also uphold other gender norms which do not have to be linked to biological sex, but are nonetheless rooted in them. For example, women frequently - whether they realise it or not - wear clothing and makeup designed to do the equivalent of a male peacock's feathers, i.e. attract a mate. Women's and even little girls' clothes are designed to accentuate hips and breasts, i.e. indicating health and fertility, and makeup is designed to convey the impression of both health, e.g. using foundation to make your skin smooth and glowy, and readiness for sex, e.g. lipstick to give the lips a more intense colour and eye makeup to create the illusion of pupil dilation. Conservatives usually prefer women to dress in this way, which is considered gender conforming.

Right wing religious conservatives are not gender critical, they are pro gender, and they are clearly not feminists.

People who are proponents of gender identity theory also uphold gender norms, only different ones. They struggle to uphold the norms based around biological sex because no matter how he behaves, a male person can never bear children. The role of a trans woman is clearly not to be a stay at home mother and housewife; indeed, a trans woman who has transitioned in middle age may well have been the main breadwinner whilst their actual female wife was a stay at home mother and housewife. So this person clearly has not been "living as a woman" in that sense.

But what other sense is there? They can't bear children and I see no evidence that trans women are "living as women" in the sense that they stay at home and do housework, or care for elderly relatives, whilst the person on whom they are financially dependent goes out to work. So what is left? I'm afraid it's really only push up bras and lipstick, as inconvenient as that truth is.

To complicate matters still further, when a male person who chooses to wear push up bras and lipstick, and believes that in doing so they are "living as a woman" and therefore entitled to use women's spaces, what happens when they meet with resistance from women who want their single sex spaces to remain single sex? The answer appears to be, in most cases, that they default to behaving in a very male way. Some are aggressive and violent, inviting women to suck their lady dicks or brandishing placards saying "punch a TERF". Others merely continue to use women's spaces in the full knowledge that women have not consented to this but there is nothing they can do to stop it. This is not women's behaviour; this is men's behaviour.

So we see that, unable to uphold gender norms which are inextricably linked with biological sex, male people who wish to show that they are "living as women" often present in an over-the-top, stereotypically feminine way in terms of their physical appearance, but their behaviour tends to remain undeniably male, especially when challenged.

There are so many overlaps between right wing religious conservatives and gender ideologues, the most significant being the fact that they all seem to believe female people should bend to the will of male people.

Gender critical feminists do not believe any of these things. We simply believe that biological sex is real and important. A female person cannot completely identify out of the constraints placed upon her as a result of having a female body, just as a male person cannot comprehend these constraints because he has never experienced them. We reject the stereotypes and norms as far as it is possible to do so, and where it is difficult to avoid performing them, e.g. when newly postpartum, we at least recognise them for what they are. We are also broadly accepting of gender non conformity and non heterosexual orientations.

The only thing gender critical feminists have in common with right wing religious conservatives is that we believe a woman is something you are or are not, based on your biological sex, not something you identify as based on your inner feelings.

And frankly I am getting a bit sick of having it pointed out to me that gender critical feminists have certain beliefs in common with the far right (I expect we all also believe that water is wet) by people who actually have a lot more in common with those people than we do, notably the fact that they clearly believe male people should enjoy higher status than female people.

So please stop banging on about how problematic it is that we have certain things in common with right wing religious conservatives, and go and make the same point to trans activists.

While you're at it, you could ask them whether they think it is problematic that both they and neo Nazis like to engage in the violent persecution of groups of people they think are beneath them.

PaperWalkAndTalk · 28/09/2023 14:42

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 14:09

It could just as usefully be framed as the same old "if you don't agree with me you are a labour supporting, TWAW TRA" argument.

It's not helpful.

Some people People on both the left and right are gender critical. Some people on both the left and right are TWAW.

Well that's being called three things.

"If you don't agree with me, you are":

  • Labour supporter
  • Believe TWAW.
  • A trans rights activist.

Not sure why you have a problem in being called a TWAW believer if you support gender ideology?

PaperWalkAndTalk · 28/09/2023 14:48

@AdamRyan This campaign is excellent, because from your posts you would think Caroline Noakes is Labour and Rosie Duffield is Conservative.

The website shows that there is variation of opinion within political parties.

But the main crux of it is, no one believes that a woman can have a penis (also defeats the point of a sex change operation), but too many are afraid to say so and will say anything to win votes or that it shows that they are only focused on the votes of people who apparently support the notion of TWAW.

OldCrone · 28/09/2023 14:51

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 14:22

Semantics.
Transgender people put gender at the centre of defining humans
Both GC feminists and religious, "conservative" ideologies put sex as more important.
Therefore boards like this attract both GC feminists and "conservative" people.

I have no interest in watching/reading Walsh because I don't need input from someone who doesn't believe in global warming and thinks abortion should be restricted, just because we both happen to agree that biological sex is a useful way to define humans.

You don't seem to have understood the Venn diagram you posted.

In the overlap between Conservative/Religious and Transgender Ideology, it says "Gender is edifying/innate". This is what those two groups have in common, and where gender critical people have a different view to both those groups.

The conservatives don't reject gender any more than the transgender ideologists do.

Edited to add: if you still don't understand, read Margot's much longer post which should provide all the detail and explanation you need.

soddingspiderseason · 28/09/2023 14:53

@MargotBamborough
thank you for your excellent post.

OldCrone · 28/09/2023 14:55

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 14:16

Eh? I agree with you. There is no point to the campaign as neither will come out ahead IF they are judged to the same standard.
The real point of the campaign is to create a talking point so people focus on why they don't trust opposition parties (as shown here). It's PR and not to do with supporting women.
Not sure how this "doesn't stack up". I'd say your arguments don't stack up. Because it seems to build down to "ask politicians, record their answers but if they are left wing they are lying unless they say TWAW so ignore it"

You seem to have misunderstood what the campaign is about. You seem to think it's about making one party "come out ahead" of the others. It's not. It's about knowing which MPs and parliamentary candidates are rational people who know that people can't change sex, and which ones have been brainwashed or terrified into saying TWAW (or are just insane people who genuinely think people can change sex).

IcakethereforeIam · 28/09/2023 15:00

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 14:22

Semantics.
Transgender people put gender at the centre of defining humans
Both GC feminists and religious, "conservative" ideologies put sex as more important.
Therefore boards like this attract both GC feminists and "conservative" people.

I have no interest in watching/reading Walsh because I don't need input from someone who doesn't believe in global warming and thinks abortion should be restricted, just because we both happen to agree that biological sex is a useful way to define humans.

Go back and have a proper look at the Venn diagram, a really good look. Then do better than a one word dismissal of one of the major differences between conservatives and GC feminists.

You should watch Walsh's documentary, I don't have much time for him otherwise but the way the gender ideologues show themselves up is astonishing.

BloodyHellKen · 28/09/2023 15:01

MargotBamborough · 28/09/2023 14:32

No, Adam, I think you're the one getting mixed up here.

You're close to getting it - and that Venn diagram illustrates the point nicely - but not quite getting it.

People who are opposed to gender identity theory because they are right wing/religious are not gender critical. Far from it. These are people who uphold gender norms, many of which are found in their religious texts. The kind of gender norms they choose to uphold are largely linked to biological sex in a fundamental way and focus on roles and behaviours, e.g. women are subordinate to men, a woman's place is in the home, a man's role is to provide for his family, women should bear children, women should stay at home and care for their children and when they're done with that they should care for their elderly relatives etc. There is a huge focus on women's value being in their reproductive potential, which is why younger women of childbearing age are valued as objects and post menopausal women become invisible. Given the focus on sexual reproduction, it is also not surprising that the same people who hold those beliefs often oppose homosexual relationships, access to contraception and abortion.

They also uphold other gender norms which do not have to be linked to biological sex, but are nonetheless rooted in them. For example, women frequently - whether they realise it or not - wear clothing and makeup designed to do the equivalent of a male peacock's feathers, i.e. attract a mate. Women's and even little girls' clothes are designed to accentuate hips and breasts, i.e. indicating health and fertility, and makeup is designed to convey the impression of both health, e.g. using foundation to make your skin smooth and glowy, and readiness for sex, e.g. lipstick to give the lips a more intense colour and eye makeup to create the illusion of pupil dilation. Conservatives usually prefer women to dress in this way, which is considered gender conforming.

Right wing religious conservatives are not gender critical, they are pro gender, and they are clearly not feminists.

People who are proponents of gender identity theory also uphold gender norms, only different ones. They struggle to uphold the norms based around biological sex because no matter how he behaves, a male person can never bear children. The role of a trans woman is clearly not to be a stay at home mother and housewife; indeed, a trans woman who has transitioned in middle age may well have been the main breadwinner whilst their actual female wife was a stay at home mother and housewife. So this person clearly has not been "living as a woman" in that sense.

But what other sense is there? They can't bear children and I see no evidence that trans women are "living as women" in the sense that they stay at home and do housework, or care for elderly relatives, whilst the person on whom they are financially dependent goes out to work. So what is left? I'm afraid it's really only push up bras and lipstick, as inconvenient as that truth is.

To complicate matters still further, when a male person who chooses to wear push up bras and lipstick, and believes that in doing so they are "living as a woman" and therefore entitled to use women's spaces, what happens when they meet with resistance from women who want their single sex spaces to remain single sex? The answer appears to be, in most cases, that they default to behaving in a very male way. Some are aggressive and violent, inviting women to suck their lady dicks or brandishing placards saying "punch a TERF". Others merely continue to use women's spaces in the full knowledge that women have not consented to this but there is nothing they can do to stop it. This is not women's behaviour; this is men's behaviour.

So we see that, unable to uphold gender norms which are inextricably linked with biological sex, male people who wish to show that they are "living as women" often present in an over-the-top, stereotypically feminine way in terms of their physical appearance, but their behaviour tends to remain undeniably male, especially when challenged.

There are so many overlaps between right wing religious conservatives and gender ideologues, the most significant being the fact that they all seem to believe female people should bend to the will of male people.

Gender critical feminists do not believe any of these things. We simply believe that biological sex is real and important. A female person cannot completely identify out of the constraints placed upon her as a result of having a female body, just as a male person cannot comprehend these constraints because he has never experienced them. We reject the stereotypes and norms as far as it is possible to do so, and where it is difficult to avoid performing them, e.g. when newly postpartum, we at least recognise them for what they are. We are also broadly accepting of gender non conformity and non heterosexual orientations.

The only thing gender critical feminists have in common with right wing religious conservatives is that we believe a woman is something you are or are not, based on your biological sex, not something you identify as based on your inner feelings.

And frankly I am getting a bit sick of having it pointed out to me that gender critical feminists have certain beliefs in common with the far right (I expect we all also believe that water is wet) by people who actually have a lot more in common with those people than we do, notably the fact that they clearly believe male people should enjoy higher status than female people.

So please stop banging on about how problematic it is that we have certain things in common with right wing religious conservatives, and go and make the same point to trans activists.

While you're at it, you could ask them whether they think it is problematic that both they and neo Nazis like to engage in the violent persecution of groups of people they think are beneath them.

👏One of the best and well written posts I've ever read on here, thank you.

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 16:15

EasternStandard · 28/09/2023 14:29

It’s contradictory because you don’t think Labour is worse on GC issues

Therefore it will not help Conservatives get ahead

I’ve already have said what it adds. I, and other women, want to hear the answers.

I don't know what you mean by "worse"

I think the Conservatives are more likely to define what women means in interviews.

I think Labour are more likely to implement policies that benefit women.

I think neither party will update legislation to legally exclude TW with a GRC.

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 16:16

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 14:31

The point of the campaign for voters is that they will have a better idea of the definition of woman their candidates have.

Better and clearer information for voters.

Yes, except lots of posters on here say they won't believe a labour or lib dem MP who says woman = adult human female. So where does that leave us? If you are asking the question, surely you have to accept the answer?

EasternStandard · 28/09/2023 16:17

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 16:15

I don't know what you mean by "worse"

I think the Conservatives are more likely to define what women means in interviews.

I think Labour are more likely to implement policies that benefit women.

I think neither party will update legislation to legally exclude TW with a GRC.

I think the Conservatives are more likely to define what women means in interviews.

So more likely to take the GC position which goes against your post that it’s not a left / right issue

MargotBamborough · 28/09/2023 16:17

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 16:15

I don't know what you mean by "worse"

I think the Conservatives are more likely to define what women means in interviews.

I think Labour are more likely to implement policies that benefit women.

I think neither party will update legislation to legally exclude TW with a GRC.

Why do you think Labour will implement policies that benefit women?

You can't protect what you refuse to even acknowledge or name.

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 16:23

MargotBamborough · 28/09/2023 14:32

No, Adam, I think you're the one getting mixed up here.

You're close to getting it - and that Venn diagram illustrates the point nicely - but not quite getting it.

People who are opposed to gender identity theory because they are right wing/religious are not gender critical. Far from it. These are people who uphold gender norms, many of which are found in their religious texts. The kind of gender norms they choose to uphold are largely linked to biological sex in a fundamental way and focus on roles and behaviours, e.g. women are subordinate to men, a woman's place is in the home, a man's role is to provide for his family, women should bear children, women should stay at home and care for their children and when they're done with that they should care for their elderly relatives etc. There is a huge focus on women's value being in their reproductive potential, which is why younger women of childbearing age are valued as objects and post menopausal women become invisible. Given the focus on sexual reproduction, it is also not surprising that the same people who hold those beliefs often oppose homosexual relationships, access to contraception and abortion.

They also uphold other gender norms which do not have to be linked to biological sex, but are nonetheless rooted in them. For example, women frequently - whether they realise it or not - wear clothing and makeup designed to do the equivalent of a male peacock's feathers, i.e. attract a mate. Women's and even little girls' clothes are designed to accentuate hips and breasts, i.e. indicating health and fertility, and makeup is designed to convey the impression of both health, e.g. using foundation to make your skin smooth and glowy, and readiness for sex, e.g. lipstick to give the lips a more intense colour and eye makeup to create the illusion of pupil dilation. Conservatives usually prefer women to dress in this way, which is considered gender conforming.

Right wing religious conservatives are not gender critical, they are pro gender, and they are clearly not feminists.

People who are proponents of gender identity theory also uphold gender norms, only different ones. They struggle to uphold the norms based around biological sex because no matter how he behaves, a male person can never bear children. The role of a trans woman is clearly not to be a stay at home mother and housewife; indeed, a trans woman who has transitioned in middle age may well have been the main breadwinner whilst their actual female wife was a stay at home mother and housewife. So this person clearly has not been "living as a woman" in that sense.

But what other sense is there? They can't bear children and I see no evidence that trans women are "living as women" in the sense that they stay at home and do housework, or care for elderly relatives, whilst the person on whom they are financially dependent goes out to work. So what is left? I'm afraid it's really only push up bras and lipstick, as inconvenient as that truth is.

To complicate matters still further, when a male person who chooses to wear push up bras and lipstick, and believes that in doing so they are "living as a woman" and therefore entitled to use women's spaces, what happens when they meet with resistance from women who want their single sex spaces to remain single sex? The answer appears to be, in most cases, that they default to behaving in a very male way. Some are aggressive and violent, inviting women to suck their lady dicks or brandishing placards saying "punch a TERF". Others merely continue to use women's spaces in the full knowledge that women have not consented to this but there is nothing they can do to stop it. This is not women's behaviour; this is men's behaviour.

So we see that, unable to uphold gender norms which are inextricably linked with biological sex, male people who wish to show that they are "living as women" often present in an over-the-top, stereotypically feminine way in terms of their physical appearance, but their behaviour tends to remain undeniably male, especially when challenged.

There are so many overlaps between right wing religious conservatives and gender ideologues, the most significant being the fact that they all seem to believe female people should bend to the will of male people.

Gender critical feminists do not believe any of these things. We simply believe that biological sex is real and important. A female person cannot completely identify out of the constraints placed upon her as a result of having a female body, just as a male person cannot comprehend these constraints because he has never experienced them. We reject the stereotypes and norms as far as it is possible to do so, and where it is difficult to avoid performing them, e.g. when newly postpartum, we at least recognise them for what they are. We are also broadly accepting of gender non conformity and non heterosexual orientations.

The only thing gender critical feminists have in common with right wing religious conservatives is that we believe a woman is something you are or are not, based on your biological sex, not something you identify as based on your inner feelings.

And frankly I am getting a bit sick of having it pointed out to me that gender critical feminists have certain beliefs in common with the far right (I expect we all also believe that water is wet) by people who actually have a lot more in common with those people than we do, notably the fact that they clearly believe male people should enjoy higher status than female people.

So please stop banging on about how problematic it is that we have certain things in common with right wing religious conservatives, and go and make the same point to trans activists.

While you're at it, you could ask them whether they think it is problematic that both they and neo Nazis like to engage in the violent persecution of groups of people they think are beneath them.

I know all of that. But the fact is I've been subject to numerous pile ons, on this board, for stating things like:

  • Kemi Badenoch is not a feminist
  • KJK is not a feminist
  • Suella Braverman is populist and scary
  • Muslim men are not more of an issue than men generally
  • men can currently legally be recognised as women
  • I don't want to listen to Jordan Peterson
  • "free speech" proponents are often right wing
  • I think that the rape and violence statistics in this country are terrifying
  • I trust Starmer more than Johnson/Truss/Sunak

These are views I cannot square with posters being feminist and supporting women. They are views I can square with posters being right wing and posting on the board because they agree with the broader views of defining women on the basis of their biology.

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 16:23

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 16:16

Yes, except lots of posters on here say they won't believe a labour or lib dem MP who says woman = adult human female. So where does that leave us? If you are asking the question, surely you have to accept the answer?

As I asked you before adamryan, what question could be asked that would give a clear and definitive answer. I have already suggested that 'What is a woman' will allow for ambiguity and will need a follow up question about whether any male can be considered a woman, worded however it needs to be.

So where does that leave us?

It leaves us discussing what the best question is so that this opportunity is most useful to voters who want to have those answers. If you, personally, don't want the answers then that discussion is not really relevant to you.

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 16:27

PaperWalkAndTalk · 28/09/2023 14:42

Well that's being called three things.

"If you don't agree with me, you are":

  • Labour supporter
  • Believe TWAW.
  • A trans rights activist.

Not sure why you have a problem in being called a TWAW believer if you support gender ideology?

And this is exactly my point.

I DON'T SUPPORT GENDER IDEOLOGY.

I never have, I never will and I'm getting very annoyed with posters like you saying I do because I don't vote conservative. And then telling me my position is "the same old "if you don't agree with me you are far-right" argument".

It's ultimate DARVO.
I haven't accused anyone of being far right.
I have been accused of being a TRA, a labour politician, a CCHQ bot or a TWAW gender ideologue.

It's extremely boring and at this point I'm literally only posting otherwise this is just a Conservative voting echo chamber.

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 16:30

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 16:23

As I asked you before adamryan, what question could be asked that would give a clear and definitive answer. I have already suggested that 'What is a woman' will allow for ambiguity and will need a follow up question about whether any male can be considered a woman, worded however it needs to be.

So where does that leave us?

It leaves us discussing what the best question is so that this opportunity is most useful to voters who want to have those answers. If you, personally, don't want the answers then that discussion is not really relevant to you.

I don't need to come up with a question because I'm not running the campaign, I'm not involved with politics and I'm very happy with my own voting intention in my constituency with my dickhead MP.

Happy to hear your thoughts on a question. I'm actually going to be quite interested if this even gets off the ground. My money is on it being a damp squib.