Who has most disappointed you?

[Calistano]

I'd say Russell T Davies when he had his drunken rant. I get his concern that lgbt is being fractured. But his absent concern for Women and their rights was palpable. I honestly thought he had more sense.

Didn't realise this had taken off. I think the most puzzling one is Margaret atwood. I mean seriously how?

My best friend of 30+ years, who rather than saying ‘well, I’ve never known Outwith to be a rabid phobe of anything before, maybe she has a point with the gender stuff’ described my views to a mutual friend as ‘shockingly provincial and transphobic’ after our one discussion on women’s rights.

@Outwiththenorm that's shocking. Is she still your best friend?

The one sister I talked to went on about clownfish and asked for sources :(

'Provincial'. Ah yes. The gang again.

I'll kind of add Gary Lineker to the pile, although I will give him a bit of a pass as he gets such biteback for having positive posts about immigration. He doesn't tread an easy line and he probably doesn't see it as his fight. I'll beyiknow what he really thinks though.

I find it pretty amazing first that so few put their heads above the parapet on sport, second that so few have acknowledged the change since a whole load of sporting bodies unpicked the useless policies they'd put into place because they didn't think women's sport was important and actually attempted to make a workable policy because TWATW. That's after all why the sport issue got so much fightback in the first place, because it makes it so clear that transwomen are not women.

I'm constantly amazed at how often we have to say on here

'HUMANS AREN'T CLOWNFISH!'

And sources that humans are a dimorphic species....gah.

Elizabeth Day. She’s seemingly such a sweetheart and wants to have a positive impact but she propagates misogyny with TWAW nonetheless.

This. I used to really like her; she could always be a bit tone-deaf but was nonetheless intelligent & thought-provoking. I can barely listen to her now. She's issued a number of fawning craven apologies for 'triggering' TW etc & it's awful to listen to.

From an Irish perspective, the National Women's Council of Ireland is up there. I mean, the Women's Council 🙄

More locally there are lots of Irish names, as well as colleagues & professional connections that I've got a sharp shock of disappointment when I've realised.

What's worse, many of them clearly don't really understand or have considered the issues. They are just following along in a spirit of assumed inclusivity, unaware of the significance & not willing to investigate further. They also see GC ideology as aligned to the far-right, and lunatics like Enoch Burke haven't helped. I also get really irritated that feminist & GC advocates so readily align themselves with abhorrent movements & publications like Gript, and the crazies attacking libraries & library staff. For the latter, there are valid points but they are not being heard as the rabble that join in are aggressive & intimidating & are doing such harm to any chance of reasonable dialogue.

I know I'll be shot down on MN for saying this next bit: I am on the fence about Glinner (I hate that nickname anyway). I admire a lot of his activism but equally think he has at times been extreme & inflamed areas requiring sensitivity <runs away quickly>

Naomi Wolf (author of The Beauty Myth).

I'll tell you something, though. This relates back to a recent thread we had about the good things to come out of this whole sorry movement. Which were mostly things like meeting other lovely women, the resurgence of the women's movement etc.

The one thing about all this is that I absolutely relish the contempt I feel for these people. I look at people like Alice Roberts and Dara O'Briain and Robin Ince in particular, all the smug "Ooh look at me, what a clever rational person I am, I believe in science, you don't get much past me" crowd, and I utterly despise them. Every single one of them, to the very depths of my being. I despise them for their cowardice and stupidity. And I think, in comparison, I'm pretty clever and I'm relatively courageous.

So that cheers me up.

On the other side, I've been surprised by some news outlets, in a good way. The Sunday Independent, which can be tabloidesque in the extreme has written intelligently & consistently on the issue, and importantly given a platform to those (like David Quinn) whose opinions I would generally not agree with, but who I still think have the right to be heard, without being screamed manically at, in the post-Catholic Ireland we've become.

I didn't know about Dara O'Briain.

I'm sad to hear this.

Mary Beard. I liked her so much.

I'm pretty much where RealityFan is, but if I have to name one person I'll make it Keir Starmer because if there's one person who should have been able to grasp the problem its a human rights barrister.

Oh no @DworkinWasRight ! What has Mary Beard said?

Kathy Burke

Undermining James Dreyfus and supporting TWAW

Re Margaret Attwood, wasn't there a Hadley Freeman interview where it was hinted that a discussion Had Been Had and things were maybe not as black and white as previously assumed?

All of the above.

Andy Murray. His mum spoke up. He’s normally so good on standing up for women. But too chickenshit to speak up for women in sport forced to share changing rooms and cede medals to cheating males.

Do these people who say nothing honestly think we believe the issue has just passed th by? Or that they don’t understand it?

They understand it fine, they’re just too cowardly to stand up for women. When all this is over they’ll pretend that of course, they were on our side all along! They just forgot to mention it.

Mary beard? Really? I saw she offered to meet Jo Phoenix face to face to discuss cancel culture

The sneering use of the term 'provincial' has always pissed me off, with it's marvellous 'Let's snigger at the yokels' vibe.

It was this:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mary-beard-interview-emperor-of-rome-spqr-new-book-rxr63nljm

I read something with her (Mary Beard) the other dat. I get the impression that she's bottled it. I can't say I blame her, she's fought her battles, perhaps she doesn't have the energy for this one.

If I can remember where I read it I'll post it.

I’m going to see Mary Beard’s book promotion thing in 2 weeks. I’m even more interested now…

Thanks @DworkinWasRight yes after that she & jo Phoenix had a very civilised exchange about it where Jo said she disagreed with her views & how it had been used against ppl like her. Mary then agreed she might not fully appreciate all the aspects & offered to meet her in person to chat more. So I think there’s definitely hope.

Margaret Atwood and Gloria Steinem

Just found the piece I meant.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/ng-interactive/2022/feb/19/margaret-atwood-on-feminism-culture-wars

Rather lol that MA says that people aren't male or female, but immediately says clothes are!
"OK, let me say this again,” she says more sharply. “This is going to take a while to settle down, but XY and XX are not the only chromosomal combinations possible. Look it up, OK? This has been in flux for a very long time and in the Bible, a male wearing female clothes would be – ” and she makes a slicing gesture across her neck. “You want to do that? No.”"

(Psst - GCs don't claim that XY and XX are the only chromosomal combinations possible - we are well aware of variations, which largely affect only one sex or the other, and is entirely irrelevant to gender identity anyway).