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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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26
Bosky · 16/09/2023 06:56

The MoJ and HMPPS has a "Self-ID" policy but considers how well a prisoner's transgender identity is "confirmed" by different types of evidence when making decisions about where the prisoner will be accommodated.

Policy: The Care and Management of Individuals who are Transgender
31 March 2023

ANNEX A

ALWAYS ALLOCATE IN LINE WITH THE BELOW THREE POINTS:

No transgender women with a current or previous conviction for a sexual or violent offence (see Annex D) or current charge and/or who have birth genitalia can be directly allocated to the general women’s estate.

Transgender women who fall into one or more of these groups will generally be held in a prison which matches their sex registered at birth (those without GRCs), or in separate accommodation within the women’s estate (those with GRCs).

All other transgender individuals (transgender women who do not fall into one of the above groups, transgender men and non-binary individuals) must be allocated according to their legal gender.

(lots more detail - see chart on p30)

ANNEX B

Supporting Confirmation of the Gender with which the Offender Identifies

When an individual discloses that they are transgender, the following chart may assist in assessing the strength of evidence of living in the gender the individual identifies with, to help with location decisions and sentence plans.

p31
Chart showing examples of Full Confirmation, Strong Confirmation, Limited Confirmation and Counter Confirmation

p32
OFFENDERS MUST BE PERMITTED TO EXPRESS THEIR GENDER IDENTITY WHETHER OR NOT THEY HAVE ANY SUPPORTING EVIDENCE. HOWEVER, LOCATION DECISIONS TO A PRISON OR AP MUST FOLLOW THE GUIDANCE CONTAINED IN ANNEX A

Category 1: FULL SUPPORTING CONFIRMATION

This is evidence which fully confirms the individual’s legal gender. The best form of confirmation is a birth certificate. Staff should ask an individual to produce a birth certificate which will confirm their sex at birth or, if they have received a GRC and were born in the UK, a new birth certificate will have been issued showing the acquired (‘new’) gender. Asking an individual what is recorded on their birth certificate and requesting sight of this should always be the first step in confirming legal gender.

However, staff can ask for sight of a GRC (or for sight of an application for a GRC) if a birth certificate is not available. Should an individual provide a GRC as evidence, or give permission for the Gender Recognition Panel to confirm that a GRC has been issued and confirmation is received, this must be accepted as full evidence of legal gender. If a person discloses that they have a GRC, or have applied for a GRC, the individual should be asked to provide written consent for information about their previous gender to be disclosed to/from relevant staff in or on behalf of HMPPS. However, if they do not provide consent this information can still be disclosed where necessary for offender management purposes or where any other exemption under s22 of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 applies (see 4.69-4.72). Information about the gender history of an individual with a GRC should be treated carefully, as with any other sensitive information. Disclosure of this information that is not necessary for offender management purposes may amount to a criminal offence.

Driving licences and passports do not confirm legal gender. Only a birth certificate, GRC or confirmation from the Gender Recognition Panel should be accepted.

Category 2: STRONG SUPPORTING CONFIRMATION

Strong supporting evidence may include the length of time the person has been living in the gender they identify with. Care must be taken here in relation to younger people who may not have had the opportunity to demonstrate this due to their age. Other supporting confirmation may be presented as follows:

Healthcare documents - this may include documents from the GP or from a Gender Identity Clinic.

Appearance and mannerisms - this may include clothes, hair style, use of prosthetics, or other items to express gender identity. Care must be taken here as the person may not be confident to appear in court or for a pre-sentence report appointment in the gender they identify with, or may have been remanded into custody and then disclose during the course of their sentence. In these circumstances they may not have gained access to items to express their gender identity.

Evidence of day to day living – this may include bank or other cards, a driving licence or a passport showing a change of name and/or expression of gender identity.

p33
Category 3: LIMITED SUPPORTING CONFIRMATION

This may include similar confirmation to STRONG confirmation but may reflect that a person is in an earlier stage of transitioning or that they have not reached a decision.

For individuals who identify as non-binary, gender fluid or cross dresser and those who are intersex and not intending to transition to a gender opposite to that assigned at birth, they will be located in the part of the prison or AP estate consistent with their legal gender.

Particular care should be given when considering confirmation from younger people and also from foreign national prisoners who may not have had the opportunity or recourse to supporting confirmation.

Category 4: COUNTER EVIDENCE

The wider Ministry of Justice review established that people who are transgender are overwhelmingly genuine about living in the gender with which they identity. It was, however, accepted that, as with other areas of prison life, some people will always attempt to test, exploit or undermine the system. In cases where there is a concern around an individual’s sincerity, the confirmation that makes that person’s views credible will be examined (including counter- evidence) and application of the decision-making criteria would be able to identify those who may pose a risk to others.

Counter confirmation may include the lack of any supporting evidence of living in the gender with which the person identifies and may be linked to personality disorder, offending profile, sentencing outcomes and/or motivation to undermine the system. Where it is considered thatan individual is insincere, this should be clearly recorded and subject to risk, operational and security assessments, and shared with the individual.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-care-and-management-of-individuals-who-are-transgender

HM Chief Inspector of Prisons’ Annual Report for 2018-19:

"a survey of 5,133 adult male prisoners found that 2 per cent self-identified as transgender which extrapolated across jails would mean about 1,500.

Transgender prisoners are entitled to shower alone, have separate cells and can apply to switch between male and female prisons."

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hm-chief-inspector-of-prisons-annual-report-2018-to-2019

HM Chief Inspector of Prisons annual report: 2019 to 2020

"In our survey, 2% of respondents held in men’s prisons described themselves as transgender or transsexual."

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hm-chief-inspector-of-prisons-annual-report-2019-to-2020

Survey data is not included in later Annual Reports but in separate Excel spreadsheets and I have not looked at them yet.

For 2018-19 and 2019-20 the survey data is broken down by a number of religious and ethnic groups, so you can see how many men in each group identify as transgender or, in a different question, say that they are female or non-binary.

The only thing that jumped out at me was to do with male prisoners who identify as "Travellers" (approx 5% of the male prison population).

However, Foreign Nationals are more likely to say that they are Travellers so it is possible that, as with the Census, the answers to some questions might be unreliable due to difficulty understanding the questions.

Assuming that the questions were understood correctly and were answered honestly, Travellers also seem more likely to feel unsafe and experience more unpleasant incidents and difficulties.

Men's Prisons 2018-19

Are you from a traveller community (e.g. Gypsy, Roma, Irish Traveller)?

Yes: 287
No: 5,349

Foreign nationals: 8% said they were Travellers
British nationals: 5% said they were Travellers

Questions and Answers by Travellers vs Non-travellers

Is your gender female or non-binary?
Travellers: 5%
Non-travellers: 1%

Are you homosexual, bisexual or other sexual orientation?
Travellers: 8%
Non-travellers: 4%

Do you identify as transgender or transsexual?
Travellers: 10%
Non-travellers: 1%

Other questions where there was much of a difference.

Are you under 21 years of age?
Travellers: 10%
Non-travellers: 7%

Are you 50 years of age or older?
Travellers: 6%
Non-travellers: 14%

Are you from a minority ethnic group?
Travellers: 11%
Non-travellers: 32%

Are you on recall?
Travellers: 15%
Non-travellers: 8%

Are you Muslim?
Travellers: 6%
Non-travellers: 17%

Do you have any mental health problems?
Travellers: 54%
Non-travellers: 42%

Do you consider yourself to have a disability?
Travellers: 51%
Non-travellers: 33%

Do you have any children under the age of 18?
Travellers: 65%
Non-travellers: 49%

Are you a foreign national?
Travellers: 14%
Non-travellers: 9%

Have you ever been in the armed services?
Travellers: 13%
Non-travellers: 6%

ARRIVAL AND RECEPTION

(Just the answers that are highlighted in the report as "significantly more positive/negative than the comparator")

When you first arrived, did you have any problems?
Travellers: 83%
Non-travellers: 76%

Did you have problems with:

Feeling suicidal?
Travellers: 19%
Non-travellers: 12%

Other mental health problems? (not highlighted for some reason)
Travellers: 28%
Non-travellers: 21%

Physical health problems?
Travellers: 21%
Non-travellers: 15%

Drugs or alcohol (e.g. withdrawal)?
Travellers: 20%
Non-travellers: 14%

Needing protection from other prisoners?
Travellers: 13%
Non-travellers: 8%

FIRST NIGHT AND INDUCTION
(Just the answers that are highlighted in the report as "significantly more positive/negative than the comparator")

Before you were locked up on your first night, were you offered:

Toiletries / other basic items?
Travellers: 41%
Non-travellers: 52%

Something to eat?
Travellers: 64%
Non-travellers: 75 %

The chance to see someone from health care?
Travellers: 51%
Non-travellers: 60%

Did you feel safe on your first night here?
Travellers: 61%
Non-travellers: 70%

PICKING OUT JUST QUESTIONS THAT MIGHT BE RELEVANT FROM THE REST OF THE SURVEY

FAITH

Do you have a religion?
Travellers: 80%
Non-travellers: 69%

Are you able to attend religious services, if you want to?
Travellers: 79%
Non-travellers: 87%

CONTACT WITH FAMILY AND FRIENDS

Have staff here encouraged you to keep in touch with your family / friends?
Travellers: 36%
Non-travellers: 28%

TIME OUT OF CELL

Do you know what the unlock and lock-up times are supposed to be here?
Travellers: 81%
Non-travellers: 88%

Do you usually spend less than 2 hours out of your cell on a typical weekday?
Travellers: 36%
Non-travellers: 23%

Do you get association more than 5 days in a typical week, if you want it?
Travellers: 48%
Non-travellers: 60%

Could you go outside for exercise more than 5 days in a typical week, if you wanted to?
Travellers: 51%
Non-travellers: 61%

For those who have made a complaint:

Have you ever been prevented from making a complaint here when you wanted to?
Travellers: 40%
Non-travellers: 27%

For those who need it, is it easy to:

Get bail information?
Travellers: 25%
Non-travellers: 16%

HEALTH CARE

Do you have any mental health problems?
Travellers: 54%
Non-travellers: 42%

OTHER SUPPORT NEEDS

Do you consider yourself to have a disability?
Travellers: 51%
Non-travellers: 33%

Have you been on an ACCT in this prison? (assessment, care in custody and teamwork (ACCT) case management procedures because they were at risk of self-harm or suicide)
Travellers: 31%
Non-travellers: 17%

ALCOHOL AND DRUGS

Did you have an alcohol problem when you came into this prison?
Travellers: 26%
Non-travellers: 16%

For those who had / have an alcohol problem:

Have you been helped with your alcohol problem in this prison?
Travellers: 64%
Non-travellers: 57%

Did you have a drug problem when you came into this prison (including illicit drugs and medication not prescribed to you)?
Travellers: 40%
Non-travellers: 28%

Have you developed a problem with illicit drugs since you have been in this prison?
Travellers: 24%
Non-travellers: 14%

Have you developed a problem with taking medication not prescribed to you since you have been in this prison?
Travellers: 18%
Non-travellers: 9%

For those who had / have a drug problem:

Is it very / quite easy to get alcohol in this prison?
Travellers: 40%
Non-travellers: 27%

SAFETY

Have you ever felt unsafe here?
Travellers: 58%
Non-travellers: 50%

Do you feel unsafe now?
Travellers: 34%
Non-travellers: 24%

Have you experienced any of the following from other prisoners here:

Sexual assault?
Travellers: 6%
Non-travellers: 2%

Theft of canteen or property?
Travellers: 33%
Non-travellers: 26%

Have you experienced any of the following from staff here:

Sexual assault?
Travellers: 5%
Non-travellers: 2%

Theft of canteen or property?
Travellers: 17%
Non-travellers: 9%

Other bullying / victimisation?
Travellers: 18%
Non-travellers: 16%

Not experienced any of these from staff here
Travellers: 46%
Non-travellers: 58%

BEHAVIOUR MANAGEMENT
Have you been physically restrained by staff in this prison, in the last 6 months?
Travellers: 20%
Non-travellers: 13%

For those who have been restrained in the last 6 months:

Have you spent one or more nights in the segregation unit in this prison in the last 6 months?
Travellers: 18%
Non-travellers: 9%

EDUCATION, SKILLS AND WORK

In this prison, is it easy to get into the following activities:

Voluntary work outside of the prison?
Travellers: 13%
Non-travellers: 5%

Paid work outside of the prison?
Travellers: 9%
Non-travellers: 4%

In this prison, have you done the following activities:

Voluntary work outside of the prison?
Travellers: 51%
Non-travellers: 33%

Paid work outside of the prison?
Travellers: 49%
Non-travellers: 32%

For those who have done the following activities, do you think they will help you on release:

Prison job?
Travellers: 52%
Non-travellers: 40%

PLANNING AND PROGRESSION

For those who have a custody plan:

In this prison, have you done:

Offending behaviour programmes?
Travellers: 64%
Non-travellers: 49%

Other programmes?
Travellers: 59%
Non-travellers: 43%

One to one work?
Travellers: 55%
Non-travellers: 36%

Been on a specialist unit? (Does this refer to sex offenders??)
Travellers: 42%
Non-travellers: 19%

ROTL - day or overnight release? [release on temporary licence]
Travellers: 37%
Non-travellers: 20%

For those who expect to be released in the next 3 months:

Do you need help to sort out the following for when you are released:

Getting back in touch with family or friends?
Travellers: 60%
Non-travellers: 38%

===========

I don't know what to make of the above re Travellers vs Non-Travellers. Maybe there is someone here who can shed some light? Or is it possible, as with the census, that the data is unreliable?

Mary Harrington - Why are so many transgender prisoners sex offenders?
Mary Harrington - Why are so many transgender prisoners sex offenders?
Mary Harrington - Why are so many transgender prisoners sex offenders?
Mary Harrington - Why are so many transgender prisoners sex offenders?
Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2023 07:11

PaperWalkAndTalk · 15/09/2023 09:30

Wasn't there a recent statistic in Scotland that the vast majority of trans prisoners no longer identify as trans after release?

What has been dubbed Prison Onset Gender Dysphoria -

www.nationalreview.com/news/transgender-sex-offenders-placed-in-womens-jails-in-scotland/

archive.ph/2022.10.04-232359/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/half-of-scottish-trans-prisoners-changed-gender-after-convictions-pftqbbhg6

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-trans-inmates-revert-males-25840252

And I've seen quite a few posters recently talk about assessments, tests or a medical diagnosis to 'prove' that a male prisoner is transgender. No need in Scotland. The Scottish Prison System work on a self id basis (advised as they were by the Scottish Trans Alliance). No matter if the male has been convicted of sexual offences - as seen by the Isla Bryson case.

I've seen the same posters declare us all terrible transphobes while stating that they don't agree with self id. I hate to tell you....

Cherrylily7 · 16/09/2023 07:24

I would think this is linked to a fetish element of these men who are clearly obsessed with sex and twisted already before they then try a different sexual route of saying they are a woman as well as feeling more powerful in a womans prison. They would be more able to physically dominate other prisoners there to avoid being beaten up as a sex offender in a male prison. Plus obviously women available for the to ogle and potentially rape.
I feel like Alice in Wonderland watching the whole trans rights issue. Women need to come together now as much as the suffragettes did so many years ago. It is frankly terrifying and yet so many women I know do not watch the news or read anything about what is happening in the world at all. They just focus on their own daily routine and so they are not remotely aware of how we are being treated.

SharonEllis · 16/09/2023 07:26

nauticant · 15/09/2023 08:48

I can't get the meaning of this sentence:

"Meanwhile, fewer than 150 women in total are in prison in Britain for sex offences, despite representing half the overall population."

despite [what?] representing half the overall population [of what?]

Females (proper women) are naturally around 50% of the overall population in any country.

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2023 07:29

Also worth bearing in mind -

Almost 80% of women prisoners in Scotland have a history of significant head injury - mostly through through domestic abuse. Almost all participants in the study, 95%, reported a history of abuse, with more than half reporting sexual abuse in childhood and 46% reporting sexual abuse in adulthood. A history of alcohol or drug misuse was common, and 92% complained of mental health difficulties, with anxiety and depression the most common'

Quoted from this article - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57103702

These are vulnerable women, locked away for mostly low level crimes being imprisoned with males, many of whom have been convicted of sexual offences against women.

OldCrone · 16/09/2023 07:34

Category 2: STRONG SUPPORTING CONFIRMATION

Appearance and mannerisms - this may include clothes, hair style, use of prosthetics, or other items to express gender identity.

So someone like Isla Bryson with his wig and pink leggings is showing strong supporting evidence that he is living as a woman, despite his fondness for using his penis to rape women. And that absurd Canadian teacher with his enormous fake breasts would also be considered to be showing strong supporting evidence of living in his gender identity.

And mannerisms? What on earth do they mean? Interesting that they decline to say what these mannerisms actually are which supposedly express gender identity.

They've reduced women to a costume and stereotypical behaviours. Do none of the people who write this stuff ever read what they've written and go 'hold on a minute...'?

ArabeIIaScott · 16/09/2023 07:36

I would love to press them on 'mannerisms'. Preferably while sitting in front of them.

Tenashelflife · 16/09/2023 07:40

Another point to add to add to the points already made is that sex offends are seen as fair game in prison and are often targets for violence. If a sex offender then identifies as a women they are then removed for their own safety.

PermanentTemporary · 16/09/2023 07:44

I think the challenge it offers is to the idea that 'being trans' is a innate thing that is the same across the population. There is quite clearly a group of unstable and disturbed men, usually violent, for whom an unstable sexual identity is part of that presentation - Barbie Kardashian being one of them. (I believe that BK is in fact imprisoned for violence rather than sexual crimes as such). I'm leaving aside the Karen Whites and Isla Brysons who look more like opportunistic advantage-seekers.

That really isn't the same as my friend's teenage daughter who socially transitioned to male in year 12 and has gone on to medical treatment, who is a long-nondiagnosed ND, and whose main interests are making textile art and reading.

But to say that it isn't the same is to challenge the narrative that 'being trans' is a biomedical or essential part of being human, rather than a highly cultural and psychosocial phenomenon that will wax and wane. So activists are stuck defending Tiffany Green as being exactly like Stephen Whittle to the point of referring to them both as 'trans folk' without even identifying their sex.

nothingcomestonothing · 16/09/2023 07:48

I think this is my favourite question:

Are you homosexual, bisexual or other sexual orientation?

So everyone who said no has no sexuality at all??

I assume they meant to ask 'are you one of those weird non-straight people' but instead they've asked 'do you have a sexuality'. To call that an undergraduate level mistake is insulting undergrads. And this is producing the data on which the prison service functions? So depressing.

PermanentTemporary · 16/09/2023 07:49

Just to pint out as well that Mary Harrington has repeated the incorrect statement about women being imprisoned for nonpayment of the TV licence, which they aren't. Its a high proportion of total female convictions but it's not an imprisonable offence. Sloppy.

JellySaurus · 16/09/2023 07:53

The picture at the top of the article: quite clearly All Hail the Sacred Dick.

OldCrone · 16/09/2023 08:16

PermanentTemporary · 16/09/2023 07:49

Just to pint out as well that Mary Harrington has repeated the incorrect statement about women being imprisoned for nonpayment of the TV licence, which they aren't. Its a high proportion of total female convictions but it's not an imprisonable offence. Sloppy.

You can be sent to prison for not paying the fine for not having a TV licence. I think this is what people mean when they say this.

You can’t be sent to prison for a TV Licensing conviction, but you can be sent to prison for deliberately refusing to pay court fines.

On this page under After your case has been decided
https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/visit

Tabasco007 · 16/09/2023 08:39

MrsOvertonsWindow · 15/09/2023 09:16

Worth remembering that the organisations demanding that society ignore this evidence are currently all over our schools and the NHS demanding that men claiming to be women must be allowed into changing rooms, showers, hospital wards and anywhere where women and girls who are vulnerable can be found.

Do we think that happens as it's a easier for the judge as he doesn't have to make the decision of housing the TW in the male estate as they should be or the womens, which the TW will request and expect.... not saying I think it's ok to give suspended sentences or let them off, as far as I'm concerned they should be in a male prison or a totally separate one for the trans and non binary community.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 09:01

Signalbox · 15/09/2023 09:34

Are you saying that males are more likely to be violent purely down to socialisation? That biology plays no part?

Yes. Violence is a psycho-social ill. There is nothing in our biology that inherently makes men or women violent.

The testosterone studies have been heavily criticised. One commonly cited is the fact that male convicts in prison have higher testosterone levels than do males not in prison. Researchers originally thought this was proof that high testosterone is linked to violent offending. The thought then that hormone levels were individual but did not fluctuate depending on psycho-social stressors. That has since been discredited after further research as testosterone levels are affected by such stressors- prison is very stressful and the fact that even convicts who had not committed a violent crime also had these same high levels.

But the old studies linger on and become part of a mythos because they simply become discredited by being outdated rather than so flawed they have to be withdrawn.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 09:07

RebelliousCow · 15/09/2023 09:38

Testosterone does fuel both sex drive and aggressive instinct, though.

You do hear of young women " on T" that talk about how it cranked up their sex drive and how it can also make them aggressive and bad tempered.

Males in many species have to compete and fight each other to gain access to females.

Yes testosterone is important for sex drive, not for aggressive instinct.

Yes, we do hear many people repeating the old mythos of testosterone making you aggressive. They believe it to be true, so they see only what they believe. They may even feel they have license to act more aggressively because they take testosterone.

Males in just as many species do not fight to win over a female. Some build homes/nests and the female picks the best one. Some species the fattest male wins the prize. Other species it’s the best dancer that wins. Other species the male that brings the best food as gifts that wins. The old nature documentaries had a sexist bias in them in that it was more entertaining to watch animals fighting than it was to watch a female animals going house hunting and picking a male based on who built the best home to raise young in. These other forms of mating were largely ignored due to this sexist bias. It also fuelled the misogyny of the times in that it is only natural for males to fight and the female is the passive, submissive prize to the biggest, baddest male. They ignored all the species where the female has choice and chooses her mate, or mates as quite a few species the female has more than one male on attendance.

Kilopascal · 16/09/2023 09:15

But we aren't other species. Humans are human. And I do not know of any human population worldwide in which female violence outweighs male.

PermanentTemporary · 16/09/2023 09:25

'They may even feel they have license to act more aggressively because they take testosterone.'

I think this is really likely. Like people having 'permission' to break more rules when they drink alcohol.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 09:26

Kilopascal · 16/09/2023 09:15

But we aren't other species. Humans are human. And I do not know of any human population worldwide in which female violence outweighs male.

Yes I agree completely. I was addressing @RebelliousCow mostly to offset the wide spread impression caused by decades of sexism that all species are the same for mating.

Do you know of any human populations that do not have patriarchy? And how do those who take power, keep power?

Violence is a choice. The myth that testosterone is making men be violent is just an excuse for their continued violence. Violence which is deployed somehow coincidentally to hold on to power. Power over women and power over other oppressed demographics.

OldCrone · 16/09/2023 09:26

There is nothing in our biology that inherently makes men or women violent.

But is there anything in our biology which inherently makes men more violent than women? That's the important question.

If it were down to socialisation alone, then surely there would be some societies, current or historical, in which women are/were more violent than men, or at least equally so. Can you name any of these places where this is/was the case?

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 09:29

OldCrone · 16/09/2023 09:26

There is nothing in our biology that inherently makes men or women violent.

But is there anything in our biology which inherently makes men more violent than women? That's the important question.

If it were down to socialisation alone, then surely there would be some societies, current or historical, in which women are/were more violent than men, or at least equally so. Can you name any of these places where this is/was the case?

I have seen no evidence that men are forced to be violent due to their minor biological differences from women.

There have been matriarchal societies in Africa where women were just as violent as men. The ancient Sudan is one such example (Kush empire).

OldCrone · 16/09/2023 09:34

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 09:29

I have seen no evidence that men are forced to be violent due to their minor biological differences from women.

There have been matriarchal societies in Africa where women were just as violent as men. The ancient Sudan is one such example (Kush empire).

Thanks for the historical reference. I'll look that up.

But men's biological differences from women are not minor.

Men are larger on average and much stronger than women (the strength difference is due, I think, largely to testosterone).

Men impregnate, women get pregnant. This is not a minor difference.

RebelliousCow · 16/09/2023 09:36

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 09:07

Yes testosterone is important for sex drive, not for aggressive instinct.

Yes, we do hear many people repeating the old mythos of testosterone making you aggressive. They believe it to be true, so they see only what they believe. They may even feel they have license to act more aggressively because they take testosterone.

Males in just as many species do not fight to win over a female. Some build homes/nests and the female picks the best one. Some species the fattest male wins the prize. Other species it’s the best dancer that wins. Other species the male that brings the best food as gifts that wins. The old nature documentaries had a sexist bias in them in that it was more entertaining to watch animals fighting than it was to watch a female animals going house hunting and picking a male based on who built the best home to raise young in. These other forms of mating were largely ignored due to this sexist bias. It also fuelled the misogyny of the times in that it is only natural for males to fight and the female is the passive, submissive prize to the biggest, baddest male. They ignored all the species where the female has choice and chooses her mate, or mates as quite a few species the female has more than one male on attendance.

I haven't got time right now to address your many points, but i do think you are mistaken in thinking that all sexed differences are socal in origin. Hormones are powerful substances - especially when they interact with the 'baseline' sex as determined by chromosomes. We certainly know how powerful when we look at the changes which occur at puberty - and that is not just on a physical level.

Have you read 'Testosterone' by Carol Hooven? Worth a read

OP posts:
Signalbox · 16/09/2023 09:40

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 09:01

Yes. Violence is a psycho-social ill. There is nothing in our biology that inherently makes men or women violent.

The testosterone studies have been heavily criticised. One commonly cited is the fact that male convicts in prison have higher testosterone levels than do males not in prison. Researchers originally thought this was proof that high testosterone is linked to violent offending. The thought then that hormone levels were individual but did not fluctuate depending on psycho-social stressors. That has since been discredited after further research as testosterone levels are affected by such stressors- prison is very stressful and the fact that even convicts who had not committed a violent crime also had these same high levels.

But the old studies linger on and become part of a mythos because they simply become discredited by being outdated rather than so flawed they have to be withdrawn.

Are these the same researchers that have come to the conclusion that testosterone confers no sporting advantage in males because some men who have lower testosterone are faster / stronger than some other men who have higher testosterone?

Also even if testosterone (in isolation) is not the cause of male aggression that does not automatically mean that socialisation is 100% responsible.
Where is the evidence for that?

Also you talk about the animal world but with our closest relatives (apes) it is the adolescent males that show the highest levels of aggression. Are these animals socialising their males to be aggressive or is there a biological factor involved?

RebelliousCow · 16/09/2023 09:44

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 09:26

Yes I agree completely. I was addressing @RebelliousCow mostly to offset the wide spread impression caused by decades of sexism that all species are the same for mating.

Do you know of any human populations that do not have patriarchy? And how do those who take power, keep power?

Violence is a choice. The myth that testosterone is making men be violent is just an excuse for their continued violence. Violence which is deployed somehow coincidentally to hold on to power. Power over women and power over other oppressed demographics.

To be honest this just sounds like Intersectionalist thinking/idealism around identity and the politics of power. It is pure theory - of the type which has an interest in denying biological, or other differnces - in the pursuit of an imagined 'equality'.

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