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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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26
PorcelinaV · 16/09/2023 13:05

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:50

It doesn’t make sense that people are ruled by biology. That’s what I stated from the very first, and if you go back to the start, that comment is exactly what I am being criticised for saying.

You made the claim that "biological essentialism" would be "excusing men of their agency".

My point, is if (we imagine) that's correct about biology, why wouldn't it be correct about socialisation?

What's the difference?

I'm asking you to support your claim that "biological essentialism" would excuse men of their agency.

LizaBizza · 16/09/2023 13:06

"Why are so many transgender prisoners sex offenders? "

Now imagine asking the same question but replacing "transgender" with the name of a race or religion. How would people react?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/09/2023 13:11

Most of these males only seem to discover their inner womanliness after getting caught, @DuesToTheDirt, so that wouldn't really apply.

And then some of them seem to realise that they were actually men all along on release from prison.

Clymene · 16/09/2023 13:14

LizaBizza · 16/09/2023 13:06

"Why are so many transgender prisoners sex offenders? "

Now imagine asking the same question but replacing "transgender" with the name of a race or religion. How would people react?

Do you have any stats for that? Because as far as I know , particular ethnicities or religions are not over represented in the convicted sex offender population. Whereas transwomen are.

Or are you proposing we don't discuss facts?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/09/2023 13:15

Now imagine asking the same question but replacing "transgender" with the name of a race or religion. How would people react?

If that was the case, don't you think questions should be asked? It may be that they are being disproportionately imprisoned for sex offences compared to other races or religions, no?

PorcelinaV · 16/09/2023 13:27

I'm no expert on this stuff, but apparently, if still controversial, castration and chemical castration may well work to some degree:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3824348/

There is no robust data on effectiveness. However, reviews of the data that are available report that, over follow-up periods ranging from 1 to 35 years, recidivism rates of 2.5–7.5 percent were found after surgical castration compared to 60–84 percent in offenders left “untreated” (Heim and Hursch 1979; Weinberger et al. 2005).

...

Chemical castration via administration of CPA and MPA has been found effective in reducing recidivism in sexual offenders with paraphilias in some small-scale, controlled studies (e.g., Fedoroff et al. 1992; Maletzky, Tolan, and McFarland 2006; Meyer et al. 1992). However, other studies found no significant effect (e.g., Hucker, Langevin, and Bain 1988; Maletzky 1991).2 Several studies have shown high efficacy rates for GnRH agonists in dramatically reducing testosterone levels and self-reported deviant sexual desires and behaviours, including in individuals who did not respond to CPA or MPA. However, no randomised controlled trials have yet been published (Thibaut et al. 2010).

Thus, for both traditional agents and GnRH agonists, evidence for effectiveness is not robust. Moreover, chemical castration appears to be ineffective in antisocial or psychopathic sex offenders who do not suffer from paraphilia (Berlin 2009), and certain comorbidities may preclude effective intervention in individuals with paraphilia (Saleh and Guidry 2003).

Coercion, Incarceration, and Chemical Castration: An Argument From Autonomy

In several jurisdictions, sex offenders may be offered chemical castration as an alternative to further incarceration. In some, agreement to chemical castration may be made a formal condition of parole or release. In others, refusal to undergo chemical...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3824348

Rudderneck · 16/09/2023 13:29

The anicient Kush society isn't evidence of much, we don't know enough about what day to day life looked like there. We do know that in many matriarchal societies we know about more clearly, like the Iroquois, men were still mainly responsible for things like warfare.

We also know that among many other mammals, males are more aggressive overall. That doesn't mean they are never gentle, nor that female animals are never aggressive, we aren't working in absolutes here. But it's universally accepted in biology that this is a thing, and humans are not somehow outside of that.

Where biological determinism and free will intersect, in human beings, is a difficult question. St Augustine, living in the last days of the Roman Empire, maintained that we do have free will, but that it is compromised by the effects of the Fall, so that human beings are subject to original sin to the point that sometimes we can't even know if we ourselves are entirely culpable for certain acts, or were entirely at the mercy of our weaknesses of mind and body. The only solution, he suggests, is to trust that God knows the difference and depend on his mercy for the rest, and go forward as best you can with the assurance that you are saved, if that's what you want. That's in terms of the soul though, he doesn't suggest it changes how the law deals with people.

I'm not sure that modern psychology really gives us a better answer than that.

In any case, given that I am personally quite affected by my own hormonal fluctuations, and have just had to apologize to a friend for over-reacting to a comment which I would be unlikely to have done were I not in the throes of PMS, I don't really see this as much of a controversy.

RebelliousCow · 16/09/2023 13:29

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:19

If it was just a matter of socialisation, then all males in a certain type of society would behave in the same way. They don't.

They do. The patterns of violence are roughly similar in all patriarchal societies on a population level.

None of this undermines the fact that males ( as a population) have a greater propensity for sexual/ violence/paraphilia/fetish than women.

Agreed

Your whole hypotheses rests on the concept of a patriarchal society which socialises males to be violent. Perhaps you should also question why most societies are patriarchal in the first? place?

Plus, all males do not behave the same in any given society. The reason is that individuals don't operate as identity groups in the way that intersectionalism would prefer they did( in order for it to justify or explain the concept of group power)

OP posts:
IamAporcupine · 16/09/2023 13:31

LizaBizza · 16/09/2023 13:06

"Why are so many transgender prisoners sex offenders? "

Now imagine asking the same question but replacing "transgender" with the name of a race or religion. How would people react?

If it was true, what would be the problem in asking that?
Do we want to understand why this happens, or do we want to pretend that it does not?

RebelliousCow · 16/09/2023 13:32

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:50

It doesn’t make sense that people are ruled by biology. That’s what I stated from the very first, and if you go back to the start, that comment is exactly what I am being criticised for saying.

Of course it does...have you ever had a baby?

OP posts:
Rudderneck · 16/09/2023 13:34

Clymene · 16/09/2023 13:14

Do you have any stats for that? Because as far as I know , particular ethnicities or religions are not over represented in the convicted sex offender population. Whereas transwomen are.

Or are you proposing we don't discuss facts?

No, but they can be over-represented in other areas, particularly violent assault.

Not just the prison population either, but actually the stats for violent assault aren't ethnically balanced at all.

I'm not sure that it is a good idea to avoid talking about that though, just because it seems to raise difficult questions. Not in this thread obviously, but in society.

Apollo441 · 16/09/2023 13:38

LizaBizza · 16/09/2023 13:06

"Why are so many transgender prisoners sex offenders? "

Now imagine asking the same question but replacing "transgender" with the name of a race or religion. How would people react?

Because no ethnicity commits 99% of sex crimes. Males do. Transwomen are male. No matter how you try to hide it or stop people talking about it those are the facts and the reasons are as clear as day. Nothing special happens when a man declares himself a woman, they remain male in all regards including rates and type of offending and because you have no case all you can do is to try and silence people.
It's not working by the way.

IamAporcupine · 16/09/2023 13:45

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 09:07

Yes testosterone is important for sex drive, not for aggressive instinct.

Yes, we do hear many people repeating the old mythos of testosterone making you aggressive. They believe it to be true, so they see only what they believe. They may even feel they have license to act more aggressively because they take testosterone.

Males in just as many species do not fight to win over a female. Some build homes/nests and the female picks the best one. Some species the fattest male wins the prize. Other species it’s the best dancer that wins. Other species the male that brings the best food as gifts that wins. The old nature documentaries had a sexist bias in them in that it was more entertaining to watch animals fighting than it was to watch a female animals going house hunting and picking a male based on who built the best home to raise young in. These other forms of mating were largely ignored due to this sexist bias. It also fuelled the misogyny of the times in that it is only natural for males to fight and the female is the passive, submissive prize to the biggest, baddest male. They ignored all the species where the female has choice and chooses her mate, or mates as quite a few species the female has more than one male on attendance.

Yes, we do hear many people repeating the old mythos of testosterone making you aggressive. They believe it to be true, so they see only what they believe. They may even feel they have license to act more aggressively because they take testosterone.

I am really puzzled about this - if you do not think this is almost exclusively the effect of testosterone - are you saying that, say, over two decades of socialization as a female (and being less aggressive) can be changed by 6 months of 'socialization as male'? How about the sex drive?
Or are you just saying that is a placebo effect?

Males in just as many species do not fight to win over a female. Some build homes/nests and the female picks the best one. Some species the fattest male wins the prize. Other species it’s the best dancer that wins. Other species the male that brings the best food as gifts that wins.

Not in apes though

Signalbox · 16/09/2023 14:13

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:26

There’s not much point to discussing the why, because it’s such a isolated data point that it doesn’t tell us much.

The data point does not show that TW are more likely than men to be sex offenders because it is not measuring offender rates for sexual offences.

To get a view as to whether TW are more likely than men to be sex offenders you have to look at offending rates on a whole population basis, not % of convicts basis.

Then depending, on what the results are, we can look at why there might be differences if they are statistically significant and other confounding factors are adequately addressed.

OK well that's doable...

According to the 2021 census 48,000 people ID as trans women in Eng/Wales
And according to MoJ 168 prisoners ID as TW in England and Wales prisons.
That means that 0.35% of TW are in prison and approx 50% are sex offenders.

According to the census there are 29m men and boys in Eng/Wales.
Minus approx. 5m (under 16s) = 24m.
According to the MoJ there are approx. 82,000 men in prison.
That means 0.34% of the adult male people are in prison and approx 17% are sex offenders.

According to the census there are 30m women and girls in Eng/Wales
Minus approx. 5m (under 16s) = 25m.
According to the MoJ there are approx. 3370 women in prison
That means 0.011% of the adult female population are in prison and approx 3.3% are sex offenders.

We can see from this that TW have almost the exact same offending rates as other men when looking at the offending rates of the whole population. The only difference is they are more likely to be convicted of sex offences than other men. Even accounting for slight variations/ discrepancies in my figures you can see that TW are nowhere near in line with female offending rates.

Froodwithatowel · 16/09/2023 14:18

IamAporcupine · 16/09/2023 13:31

If it was true, what would be the problem in asking that?
Do we want to understand why this happens, or do we want to pretend that it does not?

That would be rather like the Cologne rapes situation.

Where its a rather unpleasant truth that shines an unpleasant light on one particular group and so it's seen as better by some to just - pretend it never happened.

Based on the view that since bad things only happened to women, who could be told they'd imagined it/made it up/ caused it/were reporting in bad faith, it wasn't like it really mattered.

You'd think the TQ+ population would be deeply concerned by this, and want to know why, rather than just to try and identify as it not happening/only mentioned by mean people. (Who meanly mind about women being raped as opposed to nobly lying back and thinking of Stonewall.)

The misogyny really does defy all belief.

OldCrone · 16/09/2023 14:27

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:26

There’s not much point to discussing the why, because it’s such a isolated data point that it doesn’t tell us much.

The data point does not show that TW are more likely than men to be sex offenders because it is not measuring offender rates for sexual offences.

To get a view as to whether TW are more likely than men to be sex offenders you have to look at offending rates on a whole population basis, not % of convicts basis.

Then depending, on what the results are, we can look at why there might be differences if they are statistically significant and other confounding factors are adequately addressed.

To get a view as to whether TW are more likely than men to be sex offenders you have to look at offending rates on a whole population basis, not % of convicts basis.

OK, I've done this. I've used the census data from here: https://www.ons.gov.uk/census and the figures quoted by @Signalbox at 10.57 today.

From the census:
Total number of males 18 and over in England and Wales = 23.2 million
Total number of 'transwomen' in England and wales = 48000

From Signalbox's prison figures:
13234 male sex offenders in prison
76 transwomen sex offenders in prison

So I have calculated that about 0.06% of men are currently imprisoned for sex offences and about 0.16% of males who identify as transwomen are currently imprisoned for sex offences.

This means that transwomen are nearly 3 times as likely as other men to be sex offenders.

All the data is at the links so you can check my calculations.

OldCrone · 16/09/2023 14:32

Crossposted with Signalbox, but our estimates are similar although expressed in a slightly different way.

Signalbox · 16/09/2023 14:35

OldCrone · 16/09/2023 14:32

Crossposted with Signalbox, but our estimates are similar although expressed in a slightly different way.

I'm glad my calculations matched yours!

RebelliousCow · 16/09/2023 14:39

In matriarchal societies, names, and land, tend to be passed down the female line; and in some women make all of the important decisions - but it is still women who look after the children, and it is males that tend to carry out the functions requiring strength and aggression.

OP posts:
PorcelinaV · 16/09/2023 14:45

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 10:51

we should just go back to the subject of this thread and discuss why male prisoners who identify as women are so often sex offenders.

I think we need to look at the whole pattern of offending. Looking at % of convicts convicted of a sex offence is one very isolated data point with very little context.

What would help is knowing what % of the whole population for each demographic are sex offenders.

% of convicts, it doesn’t tell us much. The % sex offenders among convicts could be high because transwomen do not murder as often as men (for example). Men having 90% of the murderers is going to make any other offence % of convicts very very small.

Needs to be a proper study done.

I'm interested that you are arguing both:

"I think it’s pretty well established in numerous U.K., US anc Swedish studies... that males socialised from birth to be aggressive and violent (toxic masculinity) and then transition as MtF will retain the male pattern of criminality."

And:

"The % sex offenders among convicts could be high because transwomen do not murder as often as men (for example)."

So they will "retain the male pattern of criminality", but maybe not for murder?

Is it the female hormones or something?

PorcelinaV · 16/09/2023 14:56

Out of interest, does anyone actually argue that trans women are genuinely more likely to be sex offenders?

Or is the argument that the data is probably completely corrupted by sex offenders lying about being trans?

MrsRobinStrike · 16/09/2023 15:01

Surely the answer is that there are no women to rape in a male prison. Violent sex offender = looking for more women to rape. Where are they? Women's prison. How do I , the violent rapist, get there? Say I'm a woman.

OldCrone · 16/09/2023 15:17

PorcelinaV · 16/09/2023 14:56

Out of interest, does anyone actually argue that trans women are genuinely more likely to be sex offenders?

Or is the argument that the data is probably completely corrupted by sex offenders lying about being trans?

How does anyone lie about being trans, when being trans is just a declaration by the person who says they are trans?

Or to put it another way, what is the difference between a man who is 'genuinely trans' and a man who is pretending to be trans?

Signalbox · 16/09/2023 15:18

PorcelinaV · 16/09/2023 14:56

Out of interest, does anyone actually argue that trans women are genuinely more likely to be sex offenders?

Or is the argument that the data is probably completely corrupted by sex offenders lying about being trans?

I’ve seen some debate about how sex offenders are more likely than other men to have various paraphillic disorders and so this might account for the increased frequency of trans identification of male sex offenders. I’m not sure where that idea comes from though or if it’s backed by evidence.