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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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26
RebelliousCow · 16/09/2023 11:53

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 10:20

Sorry you are new to the terms patriarchy and matriarchy. I’d love to discuss the differences and complexities of various examples but that would be a derail of the thread. If you start a new thread, it would be fun to go over the many historical examples and their similarities and differences.

None of us here are new to the terms matriarchy and patriarchy - though I suspect that you are.

OP posts:
Froodwithatowel · 16/09/2023 11:55

Unfortunately, the known decades of data on paraphilia clusters are probably relevant here.

It makes no difference. Anyone who says they are trans are trans, anyone who has those feelings at any time is trans, that is the rule. There is no 'true trans' or 'false trans' which means inevitably there is a vast diverse spectrum in the population from 'felt like this from early toddlerhood' to 'late adult transition out of the blue' to 'sexual interest escalating over time' to 'it's useful in the moment for an agenda'. The bottom line is: this population not only does contain sex offenders, to whom presenting as a woman gives access to their victims; an unusual amount of this population would appear to be sex offenders.

It confirms how unreasonable it is therefore to enforce this population's right to be with and use women in a state of vulnerability and undress, over and above the women's right to privacy, dignity, consent and to be regarded as equal humans as opposed to walking male therapy resources, upto and including sex aids. As with the prison situation, the whole leverage of 'you must not say no to these multiple very serious serial rapist males torturing women in prisons because what if, because of a blanket policy, you said no to some poor mythical fraudulent, gentle souled accountant TW?' is just to destroy women's equality or humanity against the needs of men to use them.

Sod that. If women wish to go and strip off in third spaces to validate male people or because they do not care where they undress, then more power to them. Go for it. Those women are consenting, their bodies and their choices. But women who do not consent to this are not any lesser in importance to the male people stamping their feet because they don't want the consenting women, damnit. They want to control and abuse and dominate the women who say no to them and make it clear who's boss.

Which confirms any further if you had any doubt that these male people are not in any kind of good faith and should have heard 'not on your bloody nelly mate' a hell of a lot earlier.

But it's all irrelevant anyway, because even if every single TQ+ identified male was proven beyond all doubt to be a gorgeous, gentle, caring individual who was absolutely safe for women to undress alongside.... the fact would still stand that some women cannot use that space with any male, lovely or otherwise, and that male is excluding them from anything at all to meet their own need for freedom of choice - and that prioritises male choice and freedom over female access and inclusion. Male supremacism. Absolutely unjustifiable exclusion and subordination of women for male benefit, and those women are tax payers, so NO male people can use female single sex spaces at all. End of. This can't happen. The first job of women's spaces is to be accessible to all women.

And anyway, if that male person actually was lovely, they would care about 'other' vulnerable women with inclusion and access needs as they would see it, and wouldn't selfishly exclude them by seeing their own wishes and needs as more important.

Signalbox · 16/09/2023 11:58

DuesToTheDirt · 16/09/2023 11:32

There is a third potential factor in the high rates of TW imprisoned for sexual offences.

If someone commits a sex crime that doesn't result in murder, there is a witness (or witnesses) - the victim. If that victim gives a description, then a description of the offender as 'male, brown-haired, mid-height' would be next to useless, where as a description of 'man dressed as a woman, brown wig, mid height' would narrow down the search pool considerably.

So if 1% of men commit sex crimes, maybe 10% of those get caught, and if 1% of transwomen commit sex crimes, maybe 80% of them get caught. This wouldn't apply for crimes such as theft if there are no witnesses.

I have no idea if this is actually the case, I'm just musing.

So TW are more likely to get caught due to them being more identifiable than the average man?

I suppose that could potentially be a factor in terms of finding the assailant if it was a stranger attack. But only in those cases where someone is “trans” before they are convicted and only in those cases where the assailant wasn’t previously known to the victim. I can’t see it making a massive difference.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 11:59

RebelliousCow · 16/09/2023 11:53

None of us here are new to the terms matriarchy and patriarchy - though I suspect that you are.

334bu explicitly admitted they were were unaware of how matriarchal societies are not simply the exact opposite of a patriarchal society.

RebelliousCow · 16/09/2023 12:00

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 10:32

Yes that is my informed opinion. I said it is socialisation that causes men to be more violent than women. There was no instance of me ever saying or implying that “men are no more violent than women”

OldCrone has misunderstood my assertion.

If it was just a matter of socialisation, then all males in a certain type of society would behave in the same way. They don't. The reason for that is that there is an inter-play between the biological/physical, the emotional/ psychological and the social, in all of us. They cannot be separated.

None of this undermines the fact that males ( as a population) have a greater propensity for sexual/ violence/paraphilia/fetish than women.

OP posts:
GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:00

OldCrone · 16/09/2023 10:54

The % sex offenders among convicts could be high because transwomen do not murder as often as men (for example).

Evidence?

It’s a hypothetical.

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2023 12:01

It's been quite astonishing, given that posters on this board habitually back up every assertation with links and evidence, to see posters refuse to do the same.

'Because I said so' doesn't work here.

Froodwithatowel · 16/09/2023 12:02

It needs to be remembered that rape has been pretty much decriminalised. One rape is not likely to get you into court, never mind into prison.

A man in prison for serious sex offending has offended multiple times, to a very serious level, likely to have involved serious injury, threat to kill, or having involved a vulnerable population such as children.

Someone who's committed this serious a crime multiple times isn't a victim of being a bit easy to recognise. But they are benefitting from people frantic to try and find excuses for them.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:03

Signalbox · 16/09/2023 11:03

I have no idea. Where are you getting your data from on this to do the basic maths?

I’m sorry if I haven’t been clear, but when you have a statistic that is % of convicts then it is obvious to me how that was calculated and also what conclusions we can arrive at from that data point.

As it is % of convicts, it tells us nothing about relative offending rates of transwomen vs men or women within the population as a whole.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:04

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2023 12:01

It's been quite astonishing, given that posters on this board habitually back up every assertation with links and evidence, to see posters refuse to do the same.

'Because I said so' doesn't work here.

No one has really posted any evidence on the causes of violence. And why should we? It’s a side bar.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:06

RebelliousCow · 16/09/2023 11:49

You mean in the same way that " more research needs to be done" when it comes to males in women's sports?

No. The issues are completely different.

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2023 12:06

You've posted no evidence to back up any of your assertations.

PorcelinaV · 16/09/2023 12:09

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 10:09

No they don’t play an important part at all in our behaviours.

I rather think that the ideology of biological essentialism is more damaging because if, as you imply, men truly cannot help being more violent due to their hormones or whatever, then why are they being punished for something they cannot control? We should abolish all prisons and just give rapists and murderers some HRT to calm them down.

That is where this nonsense that excuses men of their agency leads to.

But that would apply just as easily to your own position when you blame it on "socialisation".

Males aren't to blame for their early socialisation or growing up in a patriarchal society and it's very difficult for any individual to change that society.

So if men are more violent for this reason of "socialisation", then not their fault right?

So you appear just as guilty of "excusing men of their agency", if anyone is doing that.

If you think that biology makes men more violent, then why punish? Firstly because you think it's only one factor and men should still have control of themselves and are responsible for their actions. Or alternatively, you could just look at it as "deterrence works" regardless of whether people are truly responsible.

And of course we do sometimes try giving sex offenders drugs. I haven't checked the success of such methods. But hormones have been tried. SSRI antidepressants have been tried because they undermine sexual fantasy.

We will also use castration on dogs which I think is supposed to limit some aggressive behaviour.

Signalbox · 16/09/2023 12:13

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:03

I’m sorry if I haven’t been clear, but when you have a statistic that is % of convicts then it is obvious to me how that was calculated and also what conclusions we can arrive at from that data point.

As it is % of convicts, it tells us nothing about relative offending rates of transwomen vs men or women within the population as a whole.

You haven't been clear at all. Now it transpires that some of your posts are assertions and some of your posts are hypotheticals and somehow we are supposed to be able to work out the difference. You may not be able to to draw conclusions from the data but it is pretty clear to the rest of us that those men who ID as "trans" in prison are far more likely than other men to be convicted sex offenders. The question of this thread is WHY that is the case.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:19

RebelliousCow · 16/09/2023 12:00

If it was just a matter of socialisation, then all males in a certain type of society would behave in the same way. They don't. The reason for that is that there is an inter-play between the biological/physical, the emotional/ psychological and the social, in all of us. They cannot be separated.

None of this undermines the fact that males ( as a population) have a greater propensity for sexual/ violence/paraphilia/fetish than women.

If it was just a matter of socialisation, then all males in a certain type of society would behave in the same way. They don't.

They do. The patterns of violence are roughly similar in all patriarchal societies on a population level.

None of this undermines the fact that males ( as a population) have a greater propensity for sexual/ violence/paraphilia/fetish than women.

Agreed

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:26

Signalbox · 16/09/2023 12:13

You haven't been clear at all. Now it transpires that some of your posts are assertions and some of your posts are hypotheticals and somehow we are supposed to be able to work out the difference. You may not be able to to draw conclusions from the data but it is pretty clear to the rest of us that those men who ID as "trans" in prison are far more likely than other men to be convicted sex offenders. The question of this thread is WHY that is the case.

There’s not much point to discussing the why, because it’s such a isolated data point that it doesn’t tell us much.

The data point does not show that TW are more likely than men to be sex offenders because it is not measuring offender rates for sexual offences.

To get a view as to whether TW are more likely than men to be sex offenders you have to look at offending rates on a whole population basis, not % of convicts basis.

Then depending, on what the results are, we can look at why there might be differences if they are statistically significant and other confounding factors are adequately addressed.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:32

PorcelinaV · 16/09/2023 12:09

But that would apply just as easily to your own position when you blame it on "socialisation".

Males aren't to blame for their early socialisation or growing up in a patriarchal society and it's very difficult for any individual to change that society.

So if men are more violent for this reason of "socialisation", then not their fault right?

So you appear just as guilty of "excusing men of their agency", if anyone is doing that.

If you think that biology makes men more violent, then why punish? Firstly because you think it's only one factor and men should still have control of themselves and are responsible for their actions. Or alternatively, you could just look at it as "deterrence works" regardless of whether people are truly responsible.

And of course we do sometimes try giving sex offenders drugs. I haven't checked the success of such methods. But hormones have been tried. SSRI antidepressants have been tried because they undermine sexual fantasy.

We will also use castration on dogs which I think is supposed to limit some aggressive behaviour.

No socialisation doesn’t excuse agency. The very thought of that! Just like being abused as a child doesn’t rob you of your agency or excuse you from abusing your own children.

Yes we have drugged, surgically and chemically castrated, done hormone treatments and none of it has worked at all, ever on reducing reoffending rates. This is yet more evidence that it’s not biological differences causing violence.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:36

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2023 12:06

You've posted no evidence to back up any of your assertations.

Ditto for you my friend. Now we can get into the usual posting of links that no one reads and most tend to cherry pick and then argue over what each link says. Or we can just accept that we have different viewpoints.

There are those who think men are less culpable for being violent because hormones and then there is me and I dare say others that view that as a disproved excuse that engenders continued acceptance of a society where men are more violent and so women must modify their behaviour to accommodate this disability.

334bu · 16/09/2023 12:36

Still doesn't explain why so many male offenders who identify as women are sex offenders. So what socialisation and or psychological differences make this group of men disproportionately violent towards women?

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:39

334bu · 16/09/2023 12:36

Still doesn't explain why so many male offenders who identify as women are sex offenders. So what socialisation and or psychological differences make this group of men disproportionately violent towards women?

The % of convicts convicted of sexual offences does not show that TW are disproportionately violent towards or sexual predators of women compared to men. It’s the wrong calculation to show whether that is the case or not.

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2023 12:44

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:36

Ditto for you my friend. Now we can get into the usual posting of links that no one reads and most tend to cherry pick and then argue over what each link says. Or we can just accept that we have different viewpoints.

There are those who think men are less culpable for being violent because hormones and then there is me and I dare say others that view that as a disproved excuse that engenders continued acceptance of a society where men are more violent and so women must modify their behaviour to accommodate this disability.

That's pish, pal. My posts have included links to back up what I've said. In common with most posters on here, that's what we do. Actually back up assertations with evidence.

You've just said whatever random shit pops into your head and offered absolutely no evidence to back it up.

As I said, 'because I said so' doesn't work here.

PorcelinaV · 16/09/2023 12:45

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:32

No socialisation doesn’t excuse agency. The very thought of that! Just like being abused as a child doesn’t rob you of your agency or excuse you from abusing your own children.

Yes we have drugged, surgically and chemically castrated, done hormone treatments and none of it has worked at all, ever on reducing reoffending rates. This is yet more evidence that it’s not biological differences causing violence.

So why would biology playing a factor "excuse agency" then?

People aren't completely controlled by socialisation, (despite it apparently massively increasing violent crime according to you), but they would be completely controlled by biology?

How does that make sense?

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:49

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2023 12:44

That's pish, pal. My posts have included links to back up what I've said. In common with most posters on here, that's what we do. Actually back up assertations with evidence.

You've just said whatever random shit pops into your head and offered absolutely no evidence to back it up.

As I said, 'because I said so' doesn't work here.

Your posts on matters other than the causes of violence have included links as have my posts.

However, no one has posted any evidence men’s testosterone emitting balls are the primary or even a “very important” cause of male violence.

GuanYinShanxi · 16/09/2023 12:50

PorcelinaV · 16/09/2023 12:45

So why would biology playing a factor "excuse agency" then?

People aren't completely controlled by socialisation, (despite it apparently massively increasing violent crime according to you), but they would be completely controlled by biology?

How does that make sense?

It doesn’t make sense that people are ruled by biology. That’s what I stated from the very first, and if you go back to the start, that comment is exactly what I am being criticised for saying.

334bu · 16/09/2023 13:00

The % of convicts convicted of sexual offences does not show that TW are disproportionately violent towards or sexual predators of women compared to men. It’s the wrong calculation to show whether that is the case or not.

So what is the correct calculation?

Convicted male offenders - 19% sex offenders.
Convicted transwomen -47% sex offenders
Convicted female offenders - 2% sex offenders

In what way does the above not show that men who identify as women are not disproportionately sexually violent?