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Original poster

Mumsnet campaign on VAWG includes men in their definition of women

221 replies

Luno · 14/09/2023 10:51

I'm not sure if/how I can link to it but under Mumsnet campaigns Women in data have published a survey about violence against women and girls.

It talks about "ALL women", asks for sex assigned at birth and says you can answer on the basis of your "gender identity".

How can any organisation purported to be for the benefit of women include men in their definition of women? All of the data will be inaccurate, unscientific and u representative.

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18
Fenlandia · 14/09/2023 16:19

GuanYinShanxi · 14/09/2023 16:05

I did it for fun anyway. And 15,185 results dating from 1932 used the phrase “assignment of sex”

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=assignment+of+sex

Show quote history

Except they don't use the phrase 15000 times, because you didn't do a phrase search! You just searched for three words, which could appear separately anywhere in an article.

If you search for "assignment of sex" with quote marks you don't get any results at all.

If you search for "sex assigned at birth" as an exact phrase, you only get 350 results, of which 346 date from 2015 onwards - so hardly proof that this has been in common usage for nearly a century, and us silly mummies on this board just didn't notice lol.

Mumsnet campaign on VAWG includes men in their definition of women
Mumsnet campaign on VAWG includes men in their definition of women
GuanYinShanxi · 14/09/2023 16:20

Efacsen · 14/09/2023 16:16

You're clearly talking nonsense. And even when presented with the evidence for this - you can't admit that you are wrong

Perhaps you're embaressed - you ought to be

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Funny, that’s my impression of you.

Weefreetiffany · 14/09/2023 16:21

Had my anatomy scan and observed my sons penis. As I have observed the penis I will assign him male. If I observed a vagina I would assign him female. That’s the process, let’s not be disingenuous about what actually happens like it’s anything more complex. There are DSD but nobody sees a penis and goes “assign them female.” We need to stop blueing the lines between gender and sex. However perhaps this is a surgery on more than one thing and they want to see how gender and sex answers correlate to self perception and experiences?

GuanYinShanxi · 14/09/2023 16:22

Fenlandia · 14/09/2023 16:19

Except they don't use the phrase 15000 times, because you didn't do a phrase search! You just searched for three words, which could appear separately anywhere in an article.

If you search for "assignment of sex" with quote marks you don't get any results at all.

If you search for "sex assigned at birth" as an exact phrase, you only get 350 results, of which 346 date from 2015 onwards - so hardly proof that this has been in common usage for nearly a century, and us silly mummies on this board just didn't notice lol.

Show quote history

I used ‘assignment of sex’ as my search function.
I stand by this because the incorrect argument is that sex is not assigned.
15,185 hits since 1932 all show that sex is assigned.

Adding the “at birth” is honestly grasping at straws.

DiabolicalFinial · 14/09/2023 16:22

It wasn’t rude, it is reality.

Given the nonsense you are sprouting, though, I don’t expect you understand or accept that.

You do you - I’ll stick to science/medicine and untransubstantiated reality.

Chersfrozenface · 14/09/2023 16:23

GuanYinShanxi · 14/09/2023 16:11

It’s just odd to suggest that “assigned sex at birth” signals belief in some ideology when the phrase itself long predates this ideology by over a half a century.

Show quote history

Only in the context of DSDs until very recently.

And no comment on the birth certificate?

Which says "Sex".

And the process was never referred to as "assigned / assignment at birth".

The birth certificate documents a person's birth. A full birth certificate is a replica of the register page that was signed on the day of registration and shows all recorded parents' details as well as the child's.

The child's sex is documented, recorded and registered.

GuanYinShanxi · 14/09/2023 16:23

Weefreetiffany · 14/09/2023 16:21

Had my anatomy scan and observed my sons penis. As I have observed the penis I will assign him male. If I observed a vagina I would assign him female. That’s the process, let’s not be disingenuous about what actually happens like it’s anything more complex. There are DSD but nobody sees a penis and goes “assign them female.” We need to stop blueing the lines between gender and sex. However perhaps this is a surgery on more than one thing and they want to see how gender and sex answers correlate to self perception and experiences?

Yes that is the process that has been used and referred to as assignment of sex for ages. It’s not new, it’s not complex, it’s not invented by some ideology to attack women.

AlisonDonut · 14/09/2023 16:24

GuanYinShanxi · 14/09/2023 16:18

Sorry, you can’t have looked at all 15,185. Not buying it.
It’s been used since 1932. It’s been widely used since the 1950s.
And it doesn’t matter even if these studies were. They are not the sum of all medical texts. The phrase has been used for all births, not just births of people with DSDs.

Show quote history

It does matter because you've pulled up studies on anything with the word 'assigned' in it.

And the word 'sex'.

This one is about identifying human remains using teeth. Nothing to do with sex assigned at birth.

Mumsnet campaign on VAWG includes men in their definition of women
Farmageddon · 14/09/2023 16:24

GuanYinShanxi · 14/09/2023 16:22

I used ‘assignment of sex’ as my search function.
I stand by this because the incorrect argument is that sex is not assigned.
15,185 hits since 1932 all show that sex is assigned.

Adding the “at birth” is honestly grasping at straws.

Show quote history

FFS now you're just talking nonsense. You know well it doesn't show what you claim it does.

What exactly are you trying to achieve here? Do you really think you're going to convince us that this has always been in use, even though none of us can recall it being used except very recently. Do you think we're stupid or somethinbg?

Farmageddon · 14/09/2023 16:26

GuanYinShanxi · 14/09/2023 15:46

I take it you’ve never looked at old birth certificates or read any old medical texts then. The process has been referred to as sex assigned at birth since at least the 1930s.

Show quote history

This was your quote from earlier on - now you're somehow claiming the 'at birth' bit doesn't matter.

AlisonDonut · 14/09/2023 16:26

Seriously.

Mumsnet campaign on VAWG includes men in their definition of women
GuanYinShanxi · 14/09/2023 16:26

Chersfrozenface · 14/09/2023 16:23

Only in the context of DSDs until very recently.

And no comment on the birth certificate?

Which says "Sex".

And the process was never referred to as "assigned / assignment at birth".

The birth certificate documents a person's birth. A full birth certificate is a replica of the register page that was signed on the day of registration and shows all recorded parents' details as well as the child's.

The child's sex is documented, recorded and registered.

Show quote history

No. Not just in the context of DSDs. You are coming up with that conclusion by confirmation bias in regards to the type of sources you are limiting yourself to.

The process has been referred to as the assignment of sex for ages.

AlisonDonut · 14/09/2023 16:27

Spatial analysis of mouse courtship.

Mumsnet campaign on VAWG includes men in their definition of women
GuanYinShanxi · 14/09/2023 16:27

AlisonDonut · 14/09/2023 16:26

Seriously.

Well done only doing a search on “assignment”
Seriously.

AlisonDonut · 14/09/2023 16:29

About bidding on auctions.

Mumsnet campaign on VAWG includes men in their definition of women
GuanYinShanxi · 14/09/2023 16:29

Farmageddon · 14/09/2023 16:26

This was your quote from earlier on - now you're somehow claiming the 'at birth' bit doesn't matter.

Show quote history

The criticism was that sex is not assigned.
Sex is assigned. Has been for 80yrs at least.
I’ve proved it.
You don’t like it.
Full Stop.

AlisonDonut · 14/09/2023 16:31

GuanYinShanxi · 14/09/2023 16:27

Well done only doing a search on “assignment”
Seriously.

Show quote history

I've literally followed YOUR link. You just didn't bother reading beyond the first page. This is YOUR search not mine.

Covid sex based management of ventilators.

Mumsnet campaign on VAWG includes men in their definition of women
AlisonDonut · 14/09/2023 16:32

Assigning nurses to patients with depression

Mumsnet campaign on VAWG includes men in their definition of women
Brefugee · 14/09/2023 16:32

GuanYinShanxi · 14/09/2023 14:18

I’ve done the survey and because it collects both gender and sex, all the data can be sorted in a way that looks at results for only females separate from any males.

The data collected can be sliced and diced by several demographic factors

  • Gender
  • Sex
  • Age group
  • Region of UK
  • MP constituency

Its not going to be inaccurate, unscientific or unrepresentative of violence against females because it has asked these demographic questions.

Yes, the survey will also collect data for males as well, but isn’t this the data we have been asking to be collected?

So that we have hard data to debunk the baseless anecdotal claims that transwomen face more violence than females?

How else can it be proven who faces more violence without doing a survey that includes males too? As I said males (transwomen) won’t be lumped in with female women in the analysis and reports because the demographics questions mean they can all be separated out by the researchers.

Edited
Show quote history

It's not a comparison. It's not a competition over who faces more violence.
It will be skewed because trans women don't admit they're men.

ditalini · 14/09/2023 16:33

Oh mate, there were 7 results from the first 30 years of your search. The first was from 1952, a paper by...... John Money.

Also, you weren't searching for a phrase there. You were searching for assignment AND sex, so you've no way of knowing how many were actually about "sex assignment".

A better phrase search would be "sex assigned at birth". 350 results from 1980 to date, but 348 of them were since 2014.

StoatofDisarray · 14/09/2023 16:33

Mumsnet this is shameful. What are you playing at?

GuanYinShanxi · 14/09/2023 16:34

AlisonDonut · 14/09/2023 16:31

I've literally followed YOUR link. You just didn't bother reading beyond the first page. This is YOUR search not mine.

Covid sex based management of ventilators.

Show quote history

Sure you did. Just like I’m sure you are faithfully noting the ones that do have assignment of sex in the full text. I have every confidence in you.

AlisonDonut · 14/09/2023 16:35

GuanYinShanxi · 14/09/2023 16:34

Sure you did. Just like I’m sure you are faithfully noting the ones that do have assignment of sex in the full text. I have every confidence in you.

Show quote history

Well yes, I'm pointing out that loads of the things included in YOUR search do not relate in any way to sex assigned at birth.

Wiccan · 14/09/2023 16:36

Well the survey thread has now been closed down by MNHQ so it's only a matter of time before this thread is stopped .

CorruptedCauldron · 14/09/2023 16:37

Just another day on BirthingPersonsNet.

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