Feminists want trans women to show passports at public lavatories, claims Labour MP Angela Eagle

[IwantToRetire]

Dame Angela Eagle, who is standing to be a Commons committee chairman, said lavatories were being “policed” at the expense of those who don’t conform to gender norms.

The MP for Wallasey said the heated debate about <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/Y3zfs/www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/06/12/labour-mp-challenge-keir-starmer-single-sex-spaces/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">trans people using single-sex spaces revolved around “recreating and then enforcing” gender stereotypes.
S
peaking at a fringe event at the Trades Union Congress conference in Liverpool, she criticised <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/Y3zfs/www.telegraph.co.uk/kemi-badenoch/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Kemi Badenoch, the equalities minister, for seeking to change the wording of the Equality Act to specify that it protects “<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/Y3zfs/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/13/gender-neutral-lavatories-are-an-invasion-of-womens-privacy/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">biological sex”.

This would make it clear that trans women have to use the men’s lavatories, while trans men have to use the ladies’, Dame Angela said.

‘Policed at public facilities’She added: “Whilst that may affect a small number of people, the actual effect is that loads of non-gender-conforming women will effectively be being policed in their use of public facilities.

“We’ve never had to show a passport to get into the toilet before. I dread to think what else they might want us to show if they change the law.”

Dame Angela warned that people would be “challenged using the toilets” for merely deviating from gender norms, citing a “butch-looking woman” as someone at risk.

“This is all about recreating and then enforcing appearance, behaviour, making certain that you actually behave and look the way your sex, your gender ought to look,” she said.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/11/feminists-want-trans-women-to-show-passport-to-use-lavatory/

She was speaking at a fringe event at the Trades Union Congress conference. Article behind paywall but available to read at https://archive.ph/ just paste in the Telegraph link.

Good grief, that's an embarrassing read. So much hyperbole and wilful ignorance. Lifted from the comments:

"Angela Eagle - out of her depth on a freshly mopped floor"

Oh my. Just when you thought Labour were taking baby steps to sanity. What have these people got against the majority of the electorate? They really don't want to be in power do they?

Hahahaha she's a plonker! Although it's not exactly reassuring that someone in her position has such lousy thinking skills. Added to which, it really isn't difficult to tell the difference between a biological man and a biological woman, regardless of how they are dressed.

Thread which casts some sunlight on Angela Eagle’s position (1st Private Eye article) for those who haven’t seen it.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3442065-Divas-Linda-Riley-in-Private-Eye

Any man who wants to use women's spaces should be allowed to do so without question, that's what she's saying?

It's all.contingent on his wants and desires and feelings and fears.

Women's wants desires feelings and fears are irrelevant.

“Dame Angela said the freedom of speech argument on trans rights seemed plausible “until you start analysing it”, adding: “To what extent does freedom of speech ever allow people to question the existence of other human beings?”
She said: “If that’s your definition of freedom of speech, then I don’t think it’s something the UN Universal Declaration (of Human Rights) would talk about. And I think that that needs to be challenged - people shouldn’t shy away from making the point that I just made.”

With apologies for making the same point twice (about critical thinking ability). But this - this absolute nonsense - just makes me despair. So under her analysis, women saying “we have a right to privacy and dignity away from this group of people” = “this group of people do not exist”.

Going back to a question someone else asked on another thread, I’d like her to answer this (rephrased) question: “But why can’t the humans with a Y chromosome and a prostate who are women share facilities with the humans with a Y chromosome and a prostate who are men?”

Brilliant 😆

The arguments made in this article completely 'get my goat'. They come from a position of being deeply lacking in any critical thinking on the issue or from trying to obfuscate, as this is the only means to maintain what they are trying to position as being the 'status quo'.

If there is a justification for single sex provision (a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim), then the most significant intervention for politicians and relevant organisational leaders is to acknowledge that access should be based on sex and sex alone, regardless of how easy or difficult it is to police and who should be doing the policing.

The issue of how to 'police' these spaces would hardly be an issue, or would be far less of an issue, if leader's starting point were to reiterate that males - no matter how they identify - should not be in spaces designated for females and that action will be taken if they don't comply.

The being 'as thick as mince' brigade are completely played by the brighter TRAs who know that they have to steer discussion in certain directions to maintain the wins that they achieved during the 'no debate and sneak things through under the radar' era.

Where are the people arguing that we shouldn't have a blood alcohol limit for driving because anyone can get in a car and drive, regardless of the amount of alcohol in their blood?

And if you scroll down to the bottom of that Telegraph page the next article listed is about police in Bordeaux investigating the alleged abduction and gang rape by three men of a 37 year old woman who was walking back to her hotel after Ireland’s Rugby World Cup match.

But the issue that this MP cares about is giving all males who fancy it the entitlement to enter facilities where women are in a state of undress.

Nobody is stating that transgender people don't exist as they clearly do.

Quite. If there were no transgender people we wouldn't be having this discussion about the right of male people who identify as transgender to enter women's spaces.

But what she might be referring to is that some of us don't believe in transgenderism, and that it is just a mistaken belief that some people hold that they should have been born in a body of the opposite sex. I don't believe that anyone is really transgender, if this is the definition of transgender.

So I suppose because I don't believe that there is any such thing as being truly transgender, it could be said that I don't believe that "transgender people" exist. But people who believe they are transgender quite obviously do exist.

Why are all the people who support the trampling of women's rights from distinctly middle class and upwards backgrounds? Their idea of a transwoman is someone who has had enough medical procedures/ cosmetic enhancements/ other costly thongs. What if Steve from the depot decides he's a woman but he can't afford a wig because he's paid by the hour? Is he still a woman? They'd start shifting uncomfortably but by their own logic, he is.

Yes I know. And his position as leader of the LP is by necessity in thrall to the unions, or at least is widely regarded as such. So if a high ranking union official is setting out the law wrong at a TUC congress, he'll want to dissociate the LP from it, won't he.

@Datun says further up that none of the comments are supporting Eagle & Grady's positions on this.

Maybe she appeared after you'd fallen asleep, Datun, but trusty Frances Truscott (a psychotherapist) put in an appearance or two, spouting her usual 'ooh, the DT being so nasty to poor TW again'.

She claimed that women have been asked to show bits best left covered to gain entry to toilets, gender non-conformers have been beaten up etc in women's loos.

No evidence cited though.

We already have men in wig and skirt

Not sure about background but no need for cosmetic procedures or costly things

Recently we had someone with just wig and skirt in female teen changing room, which was brought up by a pp on here and was in press

Haha

I tend to sort on 'most liked' to get an indication of which way the wind's blowing, so I missed it!

Someone who thinks transwoman are not able to follow the law and stay out of women’s spaces unless there is a guard at the door so the only question in her minds is how will that guard determine sex? Does she think that transwoman are more likely to act dishonestly and will lie if asked their sex or told the space is for females only? She doesn’t have a very high opinion of transwomen does she?

This 💯

So many laws are self policing, the 'genital policing' argument is ludicrous......as if the 'denying existance', 'sex isn't binary' , 'the emperor is wearing an amazing outfit'.

It is unfathomable that such ridiculous positions gained any traction in the first place, let alone are sustained by people who are capable of critical thinking but simply don't apply it or deny it

I had no idea you could sort the comments! I shall do that too.

You're quite right, of course, that the vast majority of the comments are having no truck with this nonsense. Frances T is bleating into the wind.

I do enjoy trying to spot fellow Mumsnetters' comments there.

Angela Eagle - out of her depth on a freshly mopped floor

<Chef's kiss>

The only males who try to access women-only spaces are those who are so deluded that they actually believe they are women and those who are sexual predators. Decent men who respect women and their need for privacy don't do this.

Isn't literally reading short haired women as potential men and long haired men as potential women demanding that we subscribe to (hugely out of date) gender stereotypes?

Not fantastic reasoning skills on display here.

Things were working just fine with our social norms when weren't expecting blokes in the women's loos.

Also, the vast majority of women can tell that a butch lesbian is not a man. Because of so, so much more than hair and clothes (features, size, gait etc).

Dear Angela,

Please stop speaking for feminists.

Personally I do not want anyone to have to show their passport to access toilets. I would like people who know they have or were born with a penis to respect women and use the facilities which are provided for members of their own biological sex instead. And I would like the other penis people to make them safe and welcome.

Kind regards, etc.

Once again, for the hard of thinking.

NO ONE IS DENYING THE EXISTENCE OF TRANS PEOPLE.

You cannot simultaneously deny that a group of people exists and also care about which toilets this non existent group of people are using.

It is the people who don't think we need a word for adult humans of the female biological sex or that that group deserves its own spaces and sports who are denying that women exist.