New sports club at DC’s high school only open to LGBTQ+ pupils and their allies

[SirChenjins]

Are they legally allowed to exclude GC pupils? Or pupils who are not one of the special alphabet children?

This is a really great club - nothing like the school has offered before. Seems a shame to limit attendance based on sexuality/gender ideology rather than interest/ability.

We’re in Scotland if that makes a difference.

It’s fine for them to offer a club to LGBT only.
And to set out expectations on behaviour etc for club members. As they are also welcoming other DC (‘allies’) then the club organiser would be acting unfairly not to welcome all DC.

@SirChenjins perhaps you should name this amazing activity, a little context might help.

@Loopytiles being reasonable won’t get you anywhere on this thread! All LGBTQ clubs should be banned apparently…

Well unless its one of the ?3 sports where men and women compete as equals then I'm guessing your child is still going to have issues with boys competing as girls and vice versa.

Sport, as we know, is one of the areas where sex really matters. That means that "third" spaces for trans pupils to play are entirely legitimate.

If the club organiser is going to to welcome all DC, how is it a LGBTQ+ club? and why is it called that, if it's for all DC?

If your kid's school started a kayaking club and badged it as for deer hunting kids and their allies, would your vegetarian DC be happy to say they were an ally and go? Do you think it's ok for a vegetarian kid to have to be an ally to deer hunters, in order to go to the kayaking club?

Which would make sense if it was a third space for trans kids. But it's not. It's the only space. And it's not just for trans kids.

LGBT clubs are justified. If there are remaining spaces after LGBT it’s fine to offer them to others. The thing I would take issue with is the term ‘allies’

I mean really these arguments are just a bit unthinking. LGBTQ kids are often a bit isolated, out of the main crowd and can struggle with friendships and fitting in.

It's like people here can't remember their school days when the kids that were a little different, didn't fit into mainstream expectations were often on the periphery of things. Knowing that they can take along a friend for support probably makes the difference to a lot of these kids being able to attend. It is very likely the teachers have their homework and spoken carefully with kids to find out what might make a difference for them feeling confident to participate, and bringing a friend along was identified.

If people want to reason that to death and exploit or attempt to destroy what is a well meaning effort to engage and build confidence of isolated and vulnerable children...well, what can I say.

They're far from unthinking - they are asking very pertinent questions which so far, none of the people defending the idea have been able to answer beyond 'it's a lovely rainbow thing'. No child should be excluded from taking part in a sports club because they haven't signed up to a political ideology.

@MillicentTrilbyHiggins its not the only space, the school has plenty of sports clubs. That it's the only club for this sport is also fine, schools are allowed to make different offers to different groups of students as long as things are equal overall.

The school does not offer this particular sports club to children who are not ready to declare their sexuality, or their gender, or who hold GC views, or no views on gender. Otoh, no LGBetc child is excluded from the other sports clubs for their beliefs. Ergo, it is not equal.

@SirChenjins so do you think religiously conservative children should be able to join lgbt clubs then complain about activities and discussions that centre homosexuality?

Your child will just have to learn that, whilst they have the right to their beliefs (and thank god the right to be gc is now legally recognised) other people are also allowed places and spaces where their beliefs hold sway.

What you seem to fail to recognise is that many LGBTQ kids face exclusion after exclusion every single day of their lives. In all the small moments where they are treated differently by their peers and adults for not confirming to expectations.

The OP of this thread used 'special rainbow children' to other them, and the OP has plenty of support on this thread, indicating that this pejorative attitude is somewhat mainstream.

Given that this exists I think it's ok that a few attempts are made to try to build confidence and engagement, and it probably doesn't help to have kids that for eg. insist it is their right to misgender other kids attending.

Equal so not always mean identical. And a previous poster was correct, this is all coming across as a bit entitled.

Equality rules make clear it’s fine to offer services etc for specific groups. Eg ethnicity, sex, LGBT.

Y ‘special rainbow children’ is homophobic.

Show me where schools can exclude pupils from sports clubs if they don't subscribe to a political ideology please.

I can actually think of quite a few situations where this could be problematic.

For example:

Alex is a new student at the school and doesn't have any friends yet. Alex would like to play this sport (perhaps they already played this sport at their previous school) and make some new friends. Alex cannot go along to this club with a friend who is LGBTQ+ because Alex does not have any friends yet. Alex is worried that attending this club would mark them out as being LGBTQ+ when they do not want to be labelled in this way because in Alex's old school some children were bullied for being LGBTQ+ and Alex has moved school to escape from bullying. Alex feels unable to attend.

Another example:

Taylor is same sex attracted but is not yet ready to tell anyone. Taylor's parent is a teacher at the school. Taylor would like to get to know some LGBTQ+ students but they are all in this special club and not in other, general clubs. Even though the club is supposed to be for "allies" as well as LGBTQ+ students, in reality every child who attends it is either same sex attracted or has a non standard gender identity. Taylor knows it will be impossible to attend this club without their parent being aware of it and asking questions about Taylor's sexuality and gender identity. Taylor feels unable to attend.

Another example:

Jo's parents are very religious and do not agree with homosexuality or that people should be allowed to transition. Jo's parents have already had various disagreements with the school regarding the content of PHSE lessons and Jo knows that if there are any more issues their parents might pull Jo out of school and send them to a private faith school instead. Jo's father has, on more than one occasion, physically disciplined Jo at home for what he sees as behaviour not in keeping with the family's faith. Jo finds it very difficult to socialise with their friends out of school for this reason. This year, half Jo's friendship group have started identifying as non binary and they have all decided to join this club together. Jo goes along to the club but is absolutely terrified of their parents finding out that they are a member of an LGBTQ+ club.

There has to be some point to it, e.g. some reason why this particular thing needs to be restricted to people sharing this particular protected characteristic.

And even then, a lot of the time it isn't provided in reality. For example, female only rape support groups for female rape survivors - literally the example given in the legislation of when it would be appropriate to do this - are not in practice provided because rape crisis organisations now regard this as "transphobic".

In this situation the students concerned do not share a protected characteristic and it is not legitimate or proportionate to restrict membership of a sports club on this basis.

Another example @MargotBamborough

Jess is a lesbian - out and proud, and a feminist through and through. She has recently had a run in with a boy in her year who is identifying as a transgirl - he has accused her of transphobia and of being a terf and a bigot because she doesn't want to date him. She is not attracted to boys in the slightest but he does not accept this. She wants to join this club but he is already a member. She knows that he's likely to make things very difficult for her if she joins and she feels very uncomfortable about the idea of being grappled by him (and other males) - but she knows that she will face further accusations of transphobia from him if she refuses. She is also worried that she will get hurt physically as a result of the one on one that is part of the sport as they are not segregated by sex.

As a non compliant lesbian, she will not be regarded as an 'ally' and this group would not be for her.

It's based on religious/political submission. As you say: not a protected characteristic, just masquerading as one.

Exactly - her GC views and refusal to be grappled by a male identifying as a trans girl (which she has every right to do) goes against the ethos of the club and therefore excludes her.

I hope that everyone who’s been ignoring us so far will notice @SirChenjins‘s post and understand why anything calling itself LGBTQ is problematic for lesbians like Jess.

‘The school does not offer this particular sports club to children who are not ready to declare their sexuality, or their gender, or who hold GC views, or no views on gender. Otoh, no LGBetc child is excluded from the other sports clubs for their beliefs. Ergo, it is not equal.’

So how does it work in this ping pong club then? Do they have some pledge of allegiance type thing that everyone has to recite, hand on heart, before they are allowed in? Or do you think the word ‘ally’
simply means -
don’t be a dick to the gay kids? Don’t call them names, refuse to play a game with them, shoot them looks, snigger, exclude them, make snide remarks, make jokes at their expense? All of which happens everyday to most LGBTQ kids on a weekly if not daily basis.

You are aware that gay kids come in all shapes and sizes with all manner of beliefs and opinions? There’s no one big ‘ideology’ we gays all subscribe to?

How old is your son, out of interest? This child with such strong ‘GC’ beliefs that he can’t even be in a room with gay, lesbian, bi, or possibly even trans children?

Your Op was annoyed about straight boys not having equal access to the club.