Ways to lessen the risk of rape

[ArabeIIaScott]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/789f07e8-49aa-11ee-ae7e-1fff6c8e0528?shareToken=0d97e81f86763060709b5a5106cc7a9b

The idea that any form of precautionary behaviour from women is akin to 'victim blaming' seems like madness to me. A very sensible column from K Stock.

'Someone needs to tell young women what sort of world they live in and how best to defend themselves accordingly — imperfect certainly, but still better than nothing. Contrary to popular belief, this isn’t always the same thing as telling women that if they don’t listen to sensible advice, they have no right to complain about whatever happens next.'

Another detail that I'd never considered is how insulting it is to suggest that it's mothers' responsibility to 'teach sons not to rape'.

the first thing is recognising the risk

This seems key to me.

I think this is a good discussion. In my years on MN I've noticed it's anything to do with understanding RISK that probably results in the most varying of opinions. There are vast swathes of people that simply do not understand risk, understand the concept of mitigating (trying to reduce) risk, probability, etc. Not just this but re Covid - even a few weeks ago, yes in 2023, I saw someone posting who still fundamentally did not understand the concept of lockdown or masking.

I think knowledge of risk factors is always empowering. It doesn't mean we can influence which men do and do not rape.

There are myriad factors, including the mechanics of the Justice system, that contribute to increasing the risk of rape in our society. So I think they also need looking at.

What happens when you do everything "right", you dress conservatively, you restrict your freedoms, and you don't drink alcohol to excess and yet you still face sexual violence?

But it's the same as wearing a seatbelt, or locking your door.

Locking the door is in no way the same as restricting my freedoms. It is a win-win act, no-one loses out from locking my door except me when I forget my key.

This is what I mean. People do not understand cost-benefit, risk, etc otherwise they wouldn't come out with this sort of nonsense.

I think you can be passionately and politically vocal about a cause looking to a utopian future, in this case where women can live as freely as men without the risk of sexual violence, but also at the same time be pragmatic about the reality of the situation NOW where most rapes go unreported, most reported rapes results in no charge and even the cases that go to trial have a dismally low conviction rate, thus giving men who are inclined towards sexual violence the green light to think that rape is effectively legal. I will certainly be taking a pragmatic approach with regards to my DDs safety.

Anyone who hasn't already should read the searing letter that the victim of Brock Turner, the Stanford rapist, wrote. It is an incredibly brave and articulate representation of the fucked-upness of society's attitude to rape and "preventing rape".

All this "don't get drunk, don't trust men"; let's be clear about what we're saying here. Are we saying women should never drink alcohol, ever? Because you can't always control the strength of what you're given to drink. You can't always control how alcohol affects you. You can't always control who is around when you have one too many. You can't always control being manipulated and tricked and forced into becoming drunker than you meant to.

And as for not trusting men; leaving aside the whole question of how fallible that kind of judgement is, you can't function in society that way. Are you going to never have a meeting with your male boss or a male client? Never leave your child with a male teacher? Never seek help from a male police officer? Sarah Everard trusted a man because he was legitimately a serving police officer, a figure of authority and help. My rapist was a pillar of society, a senior leader, trusted with responsibility, well spoken of everywhere (at least in public). He didn't do a single untrustworthy thing to me until the day he isolated me, used alcohol to incapacitate me, and raped me.

I agree with her. It's weird that being advised to take precautions to stop your house being burgled or your children dying in a house fire are fine, but advice on avoiding rape is taboo. Of course, some advice given is erroneous but not all of it.

And in terms of "just teach men to stop raping" thats like it being better to teach people not to burgle then lock your door. True in principle but it just ends up with you being robbed.

I do think men have to take responsibility for the world we're raising our children into. There is lots of things they can-but generally don't do. Here's my list!
1.Take full responsibility for their fair share of domestic work and childcare.

1. Challenge sexist/ misogynist/violent talk and behaviour every time they see it and wherever they see it
2. Stop using prostituted women.
3. Challenge sexist work practices-for example making sure that any panel, board or committee they are on at least represents the sex balance of the organization - if necessary refusing to go on it if it isn't.
4. Stop watching porn.
5. Stop buying and playing sexist video games, and films that don't pass the Bedschel test.

7)Think about how they parent their boys, and remember that they are the next generation of men. And that they are the man their children will learn by about relationships from. 8) Make sure that they acknowledge, and let their children see them acknowledge, the contribution their wife or partner makes to the family. This is particularly important when she is a SAHP.

Feel like I'm going round in fucking circles here! Please, what are the things that you do to "stop your house being burgled or your children dying in a house fire"? And what are the things you do to "[avoid] rape"? I just want you, someone, anyone to answer that question and tell me how are they the fucking same?

Locking the door is in no way the sameas restricting my freedoms. It is a win-win act, no-one loses out from locking my door except me when I forget my key.

but it doesn't stop you getting burgled if a burgler really wants to rob your house.

Nobody is saying it is the same. It clearly isn't the same. But it is about recognising risk.

So no, you shouldn't be taking a risk if you go for a drink in a bar. You shouldn't be taking a risk if you're in a bustier, hotpants, high heels in a bar and you get absolutely blotto. But your chances of something happening are much higher if you're in a rough bar in a rough part of town where the locals are handsy than if you're in a nice wine bar with around 50/50 clientele (in terms of sex) where the management have a "if you're handsy you're out" policy. Or is it offensive to point that out?

because if it is, I'll take the risk of offending someone rather than let them go into my local in that outfit.

'All this "don't get drunk, don't trust men"; let's be clear about what we're saying here. Are we saying women should never drink alcohol, ever? Because you can't always control the strength of what you're given to drink. You can't always control how alcohol affects you. You can't always control who is around when you have one too many. You can't always control being manipulated and tricked and forced into becoming drunker than you meant to.'

Well, what is the alternative? Saying: 'Drink as much as you want wherever you are, whenever because there's nothing you can do about what happens once you're drunk anyway'?

@popebishop well the right to get falling down drunk/wasted at parties/in the street and come to no harm is a right that we actually don't have. It has never existed, for men or women. See also hitchhiking and another whole bunch of high risk behaviours.

Some things are inherently risky.

Several people have listed behaviours that women do/observe to avoid or minimise the risk of being raped.

And no, of course they don't always work.

i find it infuriating tbh because there is a middle ground here. It's everyone can be butt naked and roaring drunk and nobody bats an eyelid because it's super safe or it's all women stay home and wear a burka and take 3 bodyguards on all occasions when they venture outside.

It isn't those binaries. It is about being aware of your surroundings. At different times at the same place the risk can be very very different. I tend not to drink more than a glass of wine if I'm out anywhere on my own. With a friend, we'd probably share a bottle, maybe two. After those two bottles of wine if a chap started hitting on her and saying he'd take her to a different bar but it was clear i wasn't invited - what, will i say "oh see you tomorrow" or do i intervene and say "we're going home now, we told the sitter we'd be back by [half an hour from now]" etc etc

we do all kinds of mitigation all the time - and being aware of the danger of our surroundings should be one of them.

But i also think we need to educate people on things other than merely stranger danger (I think people have got the message with children now? that even if it's aunty Dora, if she's making you uncomfortable to tell you?) and need to be alert to relationship red flags too.

Accept that the causal factor in rape is men deciding to rape. Accept that men actively manipulate the circumstances to create isolation, vulnerability, intoxication because they have decided to rape. Accept that women have the right to do "risky" things to the degree they choose in order to live their lives (and don't even get me started on the bullshit equating of clothes with risk) and it is still not their fault, ever, if a man decides to rape them. Accept that women already carry far, far more of the burden of "preventing rape" and they don't need extra advice on the topic.

Maybe they don't leave their vagina unlocked or unattended? Maybe when someone tries to rape them they come up against an alarmed vagina which alerts a security company?

Totally ridiculous comparisons of course, because there is no comparison between securing your home against burglars and protecting yourself against rape.

lemme get this right, just so i'm not misunderstanding: women need take zero precautions against getting into risky situation because que sera sera?

But can you consider both questions? I know that they weren't your questions. The first one - you lock your front door and buy a smoke alarm. What is the cost to you of doing that? Not the financial cost. How does it impact on your life negatively? It doesn't. And do these measures work - is there evidence to show they do? YES.

Now the second one. These behaviours that "women observe" change my ability to live my life in a fundamental and substantial way. They might affect where I work, what I do in my free time, who I am friends with, where I live. And do they work - is there evidence to show they work? I'd like to see it. As has been said, many of the things that make women and girls vulnerable to being a victim of sexual assault are NOT within her control. And yet, your ability to just exist is hugely curtailed. And you are shamed and blamed when it does happen due to this endlessly perpetuated bullshit.

Half of that comment is straw manning and the rest of it is arrogance. Perhaps it's the way you're phrasing it.

Every woman alive already balances her chosen personal safety precautions against her freedom in her own personal risk/benefit calculus every day of her life, and she doesn't need patronising advice from Stock that she's Doing It Rong.

Has anyone ever read one of these articles, and there have been many, so many - Stock's piece isn't in the least bit original - and thought "gosh, that's so useful to me, I'll start doing that right away"? No. Their purpose is for other, stupid women - women whose risk/benefit calculus isn't identical to mine, in short - and so that I, the reader, can feel superior to, and safer than, said stupid women.

I've sat in a courtroom as a juror where there were 2 victims of various sexual assaults and rape by the defendant. That man did it because he wanted to and he could. Nothing is going to stop him wanting to. No education of "boys/men". My dh/ds aren't going to rape anyone. Educating them won't stop the fucking perv that I encountered in the courtroom. I mean doesn't everyone know rape is criminal and wrong and hurts people? I believe that is part of the attraction for rapists. This man was intelligent and knew it was wrong. What shits did he give.

Guess what he got off. Not anything to do with me, that's for sure.
Free to do it some more.

i didn't say they were doing it wrong. I am asking the people who think that women shouldn't have to do anything at all and should be safe everywhere (an idea i think is ideal but we don't live in Utopia) really honestly believe that.

That you should be able to walk, buck naked and roaring drunk into a strip club full of stag parties in the expectation that you won't be raped? I'm trying to set a kind of baseline in my mind for the sort of thing people say, and what they really believe.

There’s a lot of slippage between rights, blame and precautions here and it really isn’t helpful.

So where does something like "not hitchhiking" fall @ISpyNoPlumPie ? Not hitchhiking certainly adds to your travel costs and curtails you spontaneity but buses and trains are a whole lot safer.

What advice would you give your daughter?

"That you should be able to walk, buck naked and roaring drunk into a strip club full of stag parties in the expectation that you won't be raped?".

Just to be clear - this woman should EXPECT to be raped?

I think most if not all women are well aware of dangers and risks - it's been drummed into us since we were old enough to leave the house on out own.

I don't think commentary around it is particularly helpful because then it creates the narrative that those who have been victims of sexual assault or rape clearly didn't pay enough attention and put themselves at risk.