new to this - What about all the transgender people who are 'living their best lives'?

[lily444]

hi,
I am new to this world - please be patient with me.

When I talk about gender ideology with other people - I peaked a few months ago and now can't stop talking about all this - I get a lot of anecdotal evidence of very happy transgender adults and young people.

I am starting to feel like I'm in a bit of a GC echo chamber and am now doubting myself.

While I realise that this is a very complicated issue, my natural inclination is to see these huge increases in trans identity among young people as a form of self-loathing, inability for self-acceptance, a rigid belief that to change gender would be a rebirth of a different self.. etc etc.

Of course there are transgender people and I do not doubt their existence or expect them to justify their existence to me (I feel like I have to say that or I will be accused of being transphobic).

Are there a vast majority of very happy young people and adults who are delighted with life now that they have transitioned?

Are GC people mainly worried about the vulnerable people who are being caught up in this and who are not truly transgender?

many thanks for reading.....

Speaking for myself, I think my primary concern is for young people and children. The gender affirming hormonal and surgical treatments have such awful associated medical problems that they really should be a last resort, not the first one! In this cohort I think there is little point in specifying whether the patients are transgender or not as there is no formal definition afaik. Everyone deserves better care.

My interest in is the retention and accessibility of single sex women's resources available to women who do not have the privilege of being able to use mixed sex services, or simply do not want to. (Women's feelings and wishes not mattering less than Trans people's.) And women not being harassed, assaulted and raped on hospital wards and in prisons in the name of really rather insane male centric politics.

And services not operating from a position of political bias and capture that actively support the removal of women's rights and accessibility, and child safeguarding.

And children not being supported unthinkingly via political and quasi religious beliefs into harming healthy bodies at an age where they cannot understand or consent to what they are doing, and where the agenda of adults may play a heavy part, resulting in an adult in time who may have to live with severe physical health difficulties and regret through adults not having put their protection ahead of their politics.

Beyond that, not really that bothered. Adults can do what they want if they aren't trying to destroy other people's rights.

Well happy couple don't make headlines
I have a couple of friends who are trans and living in Happy relationships

I fully accept that there are plenty of people who are happier living as what they perceive to the "opposite gender". I've met some of them, and they are perfectly nice people.

I have also met some horrid bullies who get a kick out of terrorising women in private spaces. Seperate to that I believe that biology is more important in some circumstances than societal conditioning, which is why separate facilities are needed for some things such as sports, privacy and protection.

In short...People should be able to present as they like while respecting other people.

Unpopular opinion. If you genuinely want to know: Why not go out and meet some trans people, OP. Get to know them as people and friends. Understand them. Or, at least follow some trans people on Instagram and YouTube: there are lots of genuine trans people who give their perspective (e.g. https://instagram.com/pinkmantaray?igshid=MmU2YjMzNjRlOQ== BTW, please don't go and harass this person).

Rather than ask a bunch of gender critical mumsnetters, which isn't getting out of your echo chamber. Of course, you might just want other GC people's perspective and wonder if they feel the same way as you. Or just have a discussion- if so, this is a great place to have that discussion.

There haven't been many studies on it but from the ones that exist, show statistically that transgender people struggle with MH issues and suicide ideation; and transitioning through surgery or medicine doesn't change their outcomes in regards to MH and suicide ideation.
But I think, in a way, that misses the point. Transgender people who are 'living their best lives' aren't trying to rip rights away from women or push for underage DCs to have access to surgery or puberty blockers. There are, as there have always been, trans people living their lives quietly and happily.
The issues remain the MRAs/TRAs who are trying to push women out of public spaces, sports, their jobs, schools, their families and trying to encourage DCs to take unregulated and poorly researched medication, followed by drastic life-altering surgery when there is so little research to support that either of those things improve outcomes. And much research to show that even social transitioning is not a neutral act.

If "living your best life" means wearing unconventional clothes and changing your name- crack on.

If your "best life" impacts on the lives of others ie single sex spaces no longer possible for women and girls, child safeguarding no longer robustly prioritised, enforced language change meaning healthcare language loses clarity- no thank you.

thanks both for the replies.
yes, women's rights and protecting children - they are my priorities also.

I'm just left speechless when people tell me how great it is that people can be their authentic selves and somehow made to feel like a conspiracy theorist when I raise these concerns...
and everyone seems to know one person who is so happy now etc etc .
and somehow my concerns come off as judgement of that person....

a recent conversation with a male colleague where he laments the real harms done by an attitude that trans girls shouldn't play sports with 'other' girls.... that poor girl... all she wants is to enjoy her sport.... why are people so bigoted?
I just don't know how to argue the point when it comes off as me not having compassion for that poor hypothetical trans girl (whom I actually would have a lot of compassion for if I was faced with that situation...)
my opinion is that the policy of the sporting organisation shouldn't put trans young people in this situation - it should be made clear that transgirls play sport with boys not girls.

I was speaking to someone yesterday and she thought all transwomen were altered via surgery 'to be women' so really maybe I need to be more tolerant.....gay people are really nice etc etc.
she is a highly educated extremely successful businesswoman working in a very well known tech company.... and she reads the Irish broadsheets and listens to the radio.
because she is my friend I was able to explain some facts to her... (most TW don't have surgery, transgenderism doesn't have anything to do with being gay)
she was really shocked that she got it so wrong....

ah I just needed to vent that....
thanks for reading.
yes women's rights and children/young people.....

back on track .... ;-)

👏👏👏👏

Remember we are also told that trans people have incredibly high levels of suicide etc. That hardly suggests they are particularly happy as a whole.

I feel happy, well-adjusted people don't generally descend into a jealous rage when told they can't play sport on the team they want to. I enjoy sport but have never been able to play competively because of physical issues. I just accept that rather than go around demanding it's my human right to play for Manchester United or whatever and anyone who says otherwise is a horrible bigot.

What Beowulfa said. I couldn't care less how someone wants to present and they certainly shouldn't be bullied or discriminated against (for jobs, housing and the like) for it, however, as soon as a male is in a female single sex space, it becomes mixed sex and that will exclude many females from their own space. I'm fucking furious that the so called progressives do not give a shit about those women and girls.

What about the wives and children left behind so that somebody can lead their "best life"?

www.transwidowsvoices.org/

childrenoftransitioners.org/2019/08/09/on-the-pressure-to-pretend-that-its-all-ok/

Jazz Jennings is living their best life. Jazz has never had an orgasm and never will, will never have the chance to father children, has struggled with weight gain and ongoing mental health issues, and had complications from surgeries requiring revisions.

So what choice does Jazz have? They accept a lack of libido, dilate their neovagina when Jeanette reminds them to, continues to make a reality tv show to keep the money coming in, does the best they can to manage the unresolved mental health issues and obesity, and campaigns for other children to go through exactly the same process as Jazz.

And if you ask Jazz, Jazz will say “I’m living my best life!”

I have a cousin who is a transwoman: transed in her fifties. Not sure if she's had any operations. Her former wife is still friends with her, and she is now dating a younger woman. She seems very happy and has always been accepted by her close and wider family AFAIK. There are so many questions I would like to put to her but it would just be intrusive. Again AFAIK she is not militant. My only point to OP would be that it seems the vast majority of GC are not anti trans but anti the bully tactics of TRAs and the reduction of women's rights. If that constitutes an echo chamber, try posting on Pink News or other boards.

What's the difference between a fake transgender person and a true transgender person? Answer: there isn't any real difference.

Adopting a trans identity is a solution to a variety of psychological issues not an indicator of having literally been born in the wrong body. Some people take hormones, some don't; some have radical surgery, others don't. Gender identity is a way of framing personal feelings about the self - and giving them some identifiable shape.

There is such a thing as Trans 'euphoria ( trans joy) which is the opposite of 'dysphoria' - but both conditions are emotional in orogin and not connected to everyday reality. But not everyone who declares a trans identity suffers from dysphoric feelings.

My main concern is that the majority of people in the world still believe in unsubstantiated claims that males and females are essentially different not just in physical sex differences but in an unidentifiable 'essence' that creates different tastes, abilities and personalities. This is sexist and the basis of a lot of oppression of women (which is of course actually based on female bodies, but the belief that gender is innate rather than a social construct is used to back it up.

The main reason so many people support trans rights is not that they're happy gender constructs can be broken and that we can be free to be who we want, but the opposite: they see the existence of trans people as validating their sexist stereotypes . Most people believe a trans man, for example, is a person with a male brain, soul, abilities, personality or essence born in a female body.

This affects me as a woman because it consolidates sexism directed against me. Having had to fight a sexist, patriarchal education system to attend a top university where women were unwelcome, having been dismissed by medical professionals, bullied in workplaces ...all I've had to struggle against is being reinforced.

I wasn't concerned at first about the rare cases where a trans person might misuse or abuse access to women's loos or refuges, as I cared more about trans people I knew being able to feel safe and supported.

However, now more random males who were high profile cross-dressers are suddenly thinking they're women, I feel there's far more scope for men who are abusive to use this to gain access to women's spaces.

In short, if people are able to be happy being whomever they wish, that's immense progress and what feminism has been fighting for. But if it's at the cost of young people who don't conform to gender stereotypes believing they're the opposite sex, rather than realising gender stereotypes are patriarchal tools of oppression, it's dangerous woo.

The whole " living your best life" is a load of american baloney. Baloney of the sort that is utterly self focused ( narcissistic) and believeing that individual self fulfilment is everything. 'Living your best life' usually entails lots of instagram and other social media posts and pictures showing other people how wonderful or exploratory your life is. It requires an audience and is totally performative.

There are generalised sexed differences in terms of general populations. It is hard to deny this.

I am happy for trans people to live their best lives but not at the cost of erasing women, the language around female matters, men in women’s spaces/sports/lesbian facilities etc. My main concern is for women and also that children and vulnerable youngsters aren’t getting groomed into being trans Ed

If 'living one's best life' means micro-managing everyone else so that they feel they have to validate you and conform to your every expectation doesn't sound very liberating.

What about them?

I'm happy for them. Genuinely. Everyone should be free to live their best life as long as they're not harming anyone else in doing so.

But the removal of single sex spaces for women, the undermining of women's sports, the intrusion of biological males into lesbian spaces and the lack of safeguarding for gender confused children are all harmful to various other groups.

And also re compelled speech - if living their best life involves them using opposite sex pronouns for themselves - fill your boots. You can’t force me to play along with it however.

Agree with Beowolfa. If living their best lives means forcing or coercing me to validate their view of themselves and if I don't or won't threaten me with death, sexual violence or job loss then they can fuck right off.

this is where I get stuck because then it sounds like I am questioning a trans person's existence.... (in my head - I am not of course ever going to be debating this with a trans person)
that I am being patronizing or infantilizing ..... thinking that I know them better than they do...
I do tend to see it as a communication of a dis-ease or inability to accept their material physical reality... that makes me think there are psychological issues that won't go away with surgery etc.

ah I'm just trying to make sense of it all.....I suppose that's just human nature...
it's ok for it all to not make sense to me, and I am very open to hearing more about it and I have been listening to trans people on various podcasts. But I can always do more....

I work in a profession where this is appearing a lot but mainly young people and they seem so suggestible to me and looking for answers to why they feel the way they do..... and I am just not convinced that they are 'transgender'....
i think changing genders for many of them seems to be a solution to all their problems. but I explore this too much then I am in the wrong (affirmative affirmative , or are you transphobic!!!!!!)

so glad to be able to post,
many thanks.....

this! and pulling the old “oooh you just need to get to know sone trans ppl” stuff doesn’t wash either. i do know trans ppl, neither of them pass as the opposite sex. I couldn’t give a stuff what they do in their private lives & they absolutely shouldn’t be discriminated against for being trans. However, in the case of the TW they’re obviously male and don’t belong in my single sex spaces

and frankly the visits we get here from TRA only reinforce that every single time