new to this - What about all the transgender people who are 'living their best lives'?

[lily444]

hi,
I am new to this world - please be patient with me.

When I talk about gender ideology with other people - I peaked a few months ago and now can't stop talking about all this - I get a lot of anecdotal evidence of very happy transgender adults and young people.

I am starting to feel like I'm in a bit of a GC echo chamber and am now doubting myself.

While I realise that this is a very complicated issue, my natural inclination is to see these huge increases in trans identity among young people as a form of self-loathing, inability for self-acceptance, a rigid belief that to change gender would be a rebirth of a different self.. etc etc.

Of course there are transgender people and I do not doubt their existence or expect them to justify their existence to me (I feel like I have to say that or I will be accused of being transphobic).

Are there a vast majority of very happy young people and adults who are delighted with life now that they have transitioned?

Are GC people mainly worried about the vulnerable people who are being caught up in this and who are not truly transgender?

many thanks for reading.....

OP, tell your colleague who is concerned for transgirls playing sport, that they should be on the boys team, and any bullying behaviour from other boys should be soundly stamped on.

@lily444 ask yourself why TW are allowed to speak for women but not the other way round? Why is it we have to accept TW know best about being TW (which they do) but that they simultaneously also know best about being a biological woman, better than women do

How many people in the world are actually able to "live their best lives"? It depends how reasonable your expectations are. And expecting the entire world to collude with you in your role playing at being a member of the opposite sex is not a reasonable expectation.

If a grown adult genuinely feels such deep dysphoria that it can only be alleviated by trying to resemble the opposite sex as closely as possible and does that, it’s their business and I hope it brings them peace.

But it will never make them the other sex and at best they will only be a facsimile.

It’s the insistence that they ARE the other sex and the demand that everyone believe this that is new, and invasive, and threatening. Nobody has the right to control another’s thoughts, beliefs and opinions. And women have their own spaces and sports for extremely good reasons.

Most times that I hear a MTF transgender person telling their "true story", it's a tale of being prevented, often as a very young child, from doing the simple things that made them happy, such as wearing the clothes they wanted to wear, or liking the toys and colours that attracted to them.

Often they tell really sad stories of bullying, being made to feel lesser and not a "true" boy/man. That they couldn't live up to the expectations of others.

Occasionally, its a story of a young, very effeminate gay man who was hit by the double whammy of homophobia and not seeing themselves as an acceptable part of the gay community which often puts a lot of store in masculinity.

I don't know why putting them in the box "woman" is the better option than society pulling its head out of its arse and recognising that the box "man" can fit all shapes and sizes of male humans, but there you go. Be kind allegedly.

There are many people out there whose version of 'living their best life' includes torturing animals, stealing from elderly people, abusing children, killing babies in NICU, shooting Jews, selling heroin, enslaving migrant workers, or setting fire to schools.

Plenty of people, if allowed to 'live their best life', would harm many others.

You can accept that they believe in gender identity, but it doesn't mean you have to believe in it too; same with religious faiths.

We've become so accustomed to being told that not to subscribe tp gender ideology is to " deny someone's existence" but that's nonsense. Nobody is denying that people exist - but we can't be pressured into playing along with an untruth - especially if it impacts negatively on other people - which it does.

Personally, if someone was so demanding and so controlling i'd just give them a wide berth - and wouldn't want them in my social circle, and if they were in my workplace I'd do my best to avoid them.

Sorry, responded to the wrong post......

I’m sure there are lots of trans people living their best life. Don’t look on Instagram for them though because that’s a distortion for everybody - cherry-picked moments. If you live somewhere like Brighton with a bigger dating pool of other trans folk I’m sure that helps. Or if you are a student suddenly away from your small home-town and surrounded by other gender -questioning folk it feels wonderful. Finding your tribe and all that.

But surely none (other than obvious physical differences in strength etc.) that can be shown to be innate, rather than due to social conditions and environment ?

@lily444 Phrases like "questioning a trans person's existence" or "denying a trans person's right to exist" crop up a lot in this debate.

This is emotional manipulation.

I have not seen anybody denying that trans people exist or have the right to exist.

As far as I'm concerned, trans people are welcome to exist anywhere they like, except in spaces, services and sports which are supposed to be reserved for the exclusive use of the opposite sex. Since most of western society is not segregated by sex, that's a whole lot of places for trans people to exist.

I do accept that for some trans people, if the choice is between using spaces for their own biological sex or self excluding altogether, they will choose to self exclude. And that is not really a free choice if the alternative is genuinely unthinkable for them. But by exactly the same logic, for some women, if the choice is between using spaces which are supposedly for women but include members of the opposite biological sex or self excluding altogether, they will also choose to self exclude. (For example, practising Muslim women whose faith does not allow them to be in a state of undress in the presence of male strangers, or women who are survivors of rape or sexual assault and will find the presence of a male bodied person in a space where they do not expect to see one extremely traumatic.)

The thing is, there is a double standard here. We are told that trans people must absolutely be allowed to use spaces for the opposite sex if they feel these spaces better align with their gender identity, and that it is unthinkable to put them in a situation where they are not allowed to use spaces for the opposite sex, feel unable to use spaces for their own sex, and are therefore forced to self exclude. But when women make it clear that if biological males are allowed into women's single sex spaces they will feel unable to use them, they are told that self excluding is a choice they have made.

There is also a double standard in respect of language, in that the same people who accuse us of denying the existence of trans people do not believe that female people should be allowed to have any words to describe themselves as a biological sex class which includes all female people and excludes all male people. Trans women refer to themselves as women, and increasingly as female. We are informed that the word for us is "cis women", but there are two problems with this term. Firstly, it requires us to describe ourselves using the terminology of an ideology we do not believe in, and accept the positioning of ourselves as powerful and privileged when many of us are anything but. Secondly, this term excludes female people who identify as trans men or non binary, meaning that it is not a word to collectively describe all female people. When we point this out we are snottily told that they do not want to be included. But they are included in the group of people we are trying to describe and discuss, whether they want to be or not. We are, it appears, not allowed to have a word to enable us to describe and discuss that group, because it offends some people. And then in contexts when we really must describe and discuss that group (such as healthcare), we are referred to as people with cervixes and menstruators and bodies with vaginas and all these other dehumanising terms which reduce us to body parts and bodily functions. The fact that this may offend us is neither here nor there. Again, the double standard is at play here. Another term which increasingly gets bandied about is AFAB ("assigned female at birth"). This one does the job of correctly identifying the group of people we want to talk about, but again requires us to pretend that we accept the completely ideological notion of having been assigned something at birth, which many of us find ridiculous. I would almost be inclined to accept this one if only to have a clear term to describe all female people, but experience suggests that the moment this term becomes widely used, trans women will start using it to refer to themselves, no doubt on the basis that they were assigned a female gender identity at birth. So it would almost instantly become useless anyway.

So if trans people must be allowed to use any space they want and refer to themselves however they want and have the rest of society refer to them and ourselves the way they want, but female people are no longer allowed to have any spaces or sports for themselves, or a word for themselves, or to be offended about any words used to describe them, whose existence is being denied here? Trans people's? Or women's?

Well it’s all anecdotal but I personally know some transgender people, some very close to me and they are all absolutely way more miserable than they were before they began the journey. They all had significant mental health problems though. But nah doesn’t seem to be being trans that caused those issues as they have a hell of a lot of support and acceptance and they are no better MH wise than they were pre-transition. One is way way WAY worse.

That’s just my experience though.

Well it's maybe denying someone exists in the particular sense that they claim that they do.

So someone claims to be the reincarnation of a famous person. I deny that. Or at least, I'm very skeptical about it.

Have I done anything wrong by "denying their existence"?

What if I'm correct? Surely it would be a good thing to be correct?

Now that you can ‘transition’ without Gender Dysphoria (and can have Gender Dysphoria without ever transitioning) I think gender transition should be considered the same as other forms of body modification/cosmetic surgery.

So restricted solely to self-funding adults, with protections against discrimination in housing and employment, but without the silly legal fiction of the GRA.

I still don’t think transition is a good idea but self funding, fully grown adults should have the freedom to do stuff I disapprove of with their bodies (see also: giant breast implants and ‘Turkey Teeth’).

And then the private doctors should be made liable for vetting their customer-patients fully.

To paraphrase a very wise woman:

Dress however you please.

Call yourself whatever you like.

Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.

Live your best life in peace and security.

But force women to relinquish their sex based rights and threaten violence when you feel slighted? Get tae fuck.

Well I start from the point of view that people can do what they want so long as it doesn't infringe upon others. So a bloke that wants to wear a dress and changes his name to Brenda? That's fine, I have no issue. A bloke that wants to force me to lie that I see him as a biological woman? That interferes with my freedom of speech, so no. A bloke that wants to enter single sex female spaces? That prevents women from meeting without men, so a definite no. A bloke who wants to enter single sex women's competitions? No, that's cheating. the whole point of women's competitions is to give women a chance at the prizes.

I'm not concerned about people quietly living their lives wearing what they like, I'm concerned about compelled speech, men in women's spaces and children being mutilated and sterilised before they are old enough to understand the consequences.

If someone else’s “best life” impacts negatively on my “best life”, who’s “best life” should be prioritised?

Had a lovely meet up with an ex work colleague and friend the other day. Shes a lesbian and was previously in a loving relationship with her long term partner - even bought a house together. Gender ideology got in the way of their relationship and they broke up because my friend could not accept that a bloke can be a woman. Shes also lost other friends to the gender madness. Mostly lesbian friends unfortunately. At least Im glad to know of one lesbian who hasnt fallen to the madness. There’s NOTHING redeeming about the way they pile on ppl who even dare to inject a bit of common sense into the discussion, just look at the way that Roisin Murphy has been treated even when she apologised (well kind of). Plus shes practically cancelled by her agents now. And it’s always women that get the worst of their ire…just look at JKR. Fortunately she hasn’t capitulated but many other women have rapidly backpeddled and been silenced. OTOH Ricky Gervais’ career hasnt suffered one iota despite his views.

It's all about realistic expectations. I am suspicious of anything which promotes the idea of a 'living your best life' utopia; getting married and thinking it will all be romance and true love forever, moving to a new country where you think you will finally fit in and make a totally new life, winning a fortune and thinking your troubles will all disappear...

The trans people I have heard talking about their experiences who seem happy, are those who are grounded in reality. They know they have not changed sex. They know that others will not necessarily see them as they see themselves and that certain rules apply to them because of their physical sex. They have made changes to feel happy with themselves but do not impose on other people. They consider physical changes carefully and know that there will be some dangers or side effects. They do not subscribe to Gender Ideology.

Gender Ideology, from what I have observed, teaches that the reason a person feels dissatisfied with their life is that the world is viewing them incorrectly. People react to them incorrectly and place unfair restrictions on them because the world sees only the outer physical sex and makes unfair judgements based on this. If they can force the entire world to see them as the opposite physical sex, their 'true self', everything that is currently holding them back will vanish and they will 'live their best life'.

This is why vulnerable people such as those with autism and teenagers with very little life experience are easily sucked in. They are told that being seen by the whole world as the opposite sex is THE solution to their problems. The problem is that this is not realistic - it is always doomed to failure. But they have pinned all of their problems onto being trans and have not addressed the root of their unease. So they try harder, more drugs, more surgery. When the physical transition is complete and they still do not feel happy, the only thing left is to blame the world which refuses to see them as they wish.

I feel so sorry for the young and vulnerable people caught up in this. They are being pulled into this ideology by people with bad intentions and then held there by all the well meaning people who are too afraid to do anything except play along and keep dangling that vision of utopia in front of them. And they have been taught to think that we, the people who want to help and support them to live with realistic expectations are the enemy.

I just don’t think there is such a thing as an ‘authentic self’.

Not for me, not for you, not for the nice TW next door.

Personally think it is inevitable that there are some generalised sex based differences which are innate- in the sense that the two sexes are innately wired in slightly different ways. Why would humans beings be any different to other mammals?

Human socialisation and society certainly creates opportunities for human beings to express their potentials in a variety of ways; according to innate temperament or preference and so can modify the effect of deeper more instinctive drives and patterns of behaviour.

I thiunk it is obvious, for a start, that males have a general tendency to express the sex drive in more compulsive and predicatble ways than females, for a start - there are obvious biological reasons for this. Take a look at how much casual sex features in the gay male scene - in a way it simply doesn't in lesbian scenes. Men seem far more visually oriented and can get fixated on certain features or objects in a way that women just don't. Which is why there really aren't female equivalents to the sorts of fetishism/autogynephilia you see diplayed amongst men.

Obviously not all men are sexual fetishists and not all men are violent - more there are certainly more men that are than women that are. Personality, character, society and culture can all be are modifying influences. -even if the tendencies remain.

And if you've had children you know that the nesting instinct and surge of hormones after birth tends to lead women to being far more nest based and desirous of not letting the baby out of their sight......this then continues even as the child grows.....the patterning and responses are still there.

If you look at extreme ends of various spectrums you will find that one sex or other tends to cluster around the extremes - even as there is much cross over between sexes in the middle.

"Are GC people mainly worried about the vulnerable people who are being caught up in this and who are not truly transgender?"

Being honest, to me the main thing is selfishness - I refuse to live in a society where such a bastardly ideology is cry-bullying its way to a stranglehold* over society. I would act the same way if religion was taking over again like this.

However, that's because I am a grown male without kids. I am not affected the way children are, the way women are, the way parents are. Not saying that I don't care about those things, but that I cannot be impacted in the same way and as such likely cannot care as much for these reasons as those directly impacted by them.

*Imagine it, we are at a stage where many people believe that if you do not think that a male is a woman if they 'identify' as one, that you are sub-human. Literally. These people think that for the sole reason that you define woman/man differently to them, that you are piece of shit. And they have gotten to a place where they send the police after you to thought-police you.

I'm concerned about safeguarding, and that includes kids who are not 'really transgender'. Because we haven't ever established what 'transgender' even means.

OP what do you think it means?

Are there a vast majority of very happy young people and adults who are delighted with life now that they have transitioned?

You'd think there would be more research, more of an attempt to learn from evidence and more of a desire to get it right, especially for children, young people and vulnerable people.

Instead there's a reluctance to acknowledge that it ever fails to bear the fruit of trans/queer joy and a doubling down, insisting that that's the only outcome.

If you're worried about echo chambers there are a lot of books and podcasts out there but what do you consider a middle ground outside the echo chambers? If you have any reservations at all about medicalising young children you're cast in the GC role. Off the top of my head (so not an exhaustive list) Jesse Singal, Buck Angel, Helen Joyce, Stella O'Malley and Sasha Ayad all talk about the lack of research and I can't see any evidence that they have hateful beliefs, display hateful behaviour or deny the existence of transpeople.