new to this - What about all the transgender people who are 'living their best lives'?

[lily444]

hi,
I am new to this world - please be patient with me.

When I talk about gender ideology with other people - I peaked a few months ago and now can't stop talking about all this - I get a lot of anecdotal evidence of very happy transgender adults and young people.

I am starting to feel like I'm in a bit of a GC echo chamber and am now doubting myself.

While I realise that this is a very complicated issue, my natural inclination is to see these huge increases in trans identity among young people as a form of self-loathing, inability for self-acceptance, a rigid belief that to change gender would be a rebirth of a different self.. etc etc.

Of course there are transgender people and I do not doubt their existence or expect them to justify their existence to me (I feel like I have to say that or I will be accused of being transphobic).

Are there a vast majority of very happy young people and adults who are delighted with life now that they have transitioned?

Are GC people mainly worried about the vulnerable people who are being caught up in this and who are not truly transgender?

many thanks for reading.....

And on a bizarre side note - apparently the alphabet LGBTQ+ has been extended to those identifying as Romany. I find that odd as it seems out of place in this set of letters.
@SmudgeButt WTF? how/ why would they be included?

Thing is, "Questioning a trans person's existence" can be taken more than one way.

If a trans person's existence is the existence of someone who has changed sex, then, of course, we ought to question it. No-one exists who has changed sex ... which is just another way of saying humans can't change sex. Which is true. So in that sense, yes, questioning is appropriate.

However, if a trans person's existence is the existence of someone who wishes to change sex, or of someone who thinks he or she has changed sex, well of course there is no question that such people do exist. So, in that sense, questioning existence can be ruled out.

As for "thinking that [you] know them better than they do [themselves]", well, if they really think they have actually changed sex you do know them better than they do themselves, because changing sex is impossible for humans.

And your "live your best life" concern? I'm not the first to remind you of this:
"Dress however you please. Call yourself whatever you like. Sleep with any consenting adult who'll have you. Live your best life in peace and security. ..."

-- Will that do? Surely we all agree? Well ... turns out it's transphobic to say that. No, you can't win.

So? -- Just keep telling the truth. It's all you can do.

Is this an attempt to bolster their 'genocide' claims by including a group that have actually been subjected to a real (not literal) genocide within the last century?

That's going really low even for the TRA.

According to this Guardian article, this survey is "the largest nongovernmental survey of transgender adults that uses random samplings" and included a little over 500 people (a fairly small sample size).

Of the survey participants, 62% of them identify as non binary.

Do we have any clue what that actually means? They might genuinely believe they are happier living as a non binary person than they were living as a...er...binary person, but what actual changes to their life has this involved? Have they taken any hormones? Had any surgery? Do they use single sex facilities for their own sex or the opposite sex or either depending on how they feel at the time? Or is it just about changing your name to something androgynous like Taylor or Alex and asking people to use "they" pronouns when talking about you among themselves?

Honestly, in order to demonstrate that most adults are happier after transitioning I would like to see a proper peer reviewed study including a much larger number of people who have actually meaningfully transitioned from something to something else, and to have the results broken down by birth sex, age group and what medical interventions they have undergone.

This survey doesn't tell us much in my opinion.

This includes a lot of people that claim to be "non binary" or whatever, and haven't actually medically transitioned.

Another issue, would be that people self select to take part in this kind of polling.

Perhaps there is a bias in the people that agree to do it, in that they are more likely to be the successful cases.

And also if people transitioned, weren't happy, and then detransitioned, I'm guessing they would be excluded by this poll.

There is also no comparison with people that have decided to try to deal with gender dysphoria in a different way. So get therapy perhaps to help them live with it, without trying to transition.

Also, if you are asking people a couple of years into their transition, are they still going to feel that way over decades? The explosion of cases we have seen recently, we can't possibly have long term evidence yet.

And the results of the poll appear to be that trans people are less happy than the general population, but maybe blame this on society.

They should continue living their best lives. I fully support that. I just don’t believe in legal fiction.

I think it's a bit of jumping on the band wagon. If someone can identify as the opposite sex or identify as non binary then they can also identify as being black (which has happened in the US) or Jewish or anything.

On the more trivial side......I saw a tshirt being advertised that had something written on it like ...... "I may be fat but I identify as thin so that makes me translender."

Some excellent posts here explaining the issues.

I would take more seriously the outcomes of statistics over time from organisations such as the Tavistock, who openly admitted that they did not track the long term outcomes, that many disappeared from their services, that they had no idea what the statistics were. Those unhappy with their transition will, obviously, avoid TQ+ political organisations as they are extremely badly treated for having detransitioned. It's like the women who will disappear from women's services and public life because male people in their spaces have excluded them. Who knows how many are involved and who's measuring them, because they've slipped quietly away unseen partly in fear of how the TQ+ political movement will treat them if they dare to speak. Making rape threats, death threats and beating women who are not meekly and unconditionally compliant are facts of life for this political movement, it's all over public record.

But the detransitioner forum has a very large membership group. And it's rather like the same argument TQ+ politics uses about women: what does it matter how many women are raped, assaulted, excluded and harmed if male people get freedom of choice and 'live their best life'? And what does it matter how many people are left damaged, traumatised, regretful and miserable so long as some trans people (mostly the male ones, lets be honest) say they're happy and don't encounter any boundaries to doing what they want?

It's interesting. In mental health generally, the more a person becomes internally focused, internally obsessed, fixed on me and I and who I am and what I feel and what I want.... the further away mental health and happiness gets, and the higher anxiety rises. The internal focus is in itself, an unhealthy thing. This 'best life' and 'authentic self' stuff is not healthy. This 'it's right for other people to be collateral damage in my wake of me meeting my wants and choices because I'm more important than they are' is really unhealthy, and moving into pathology.

Some people tell me I must support my young trans relative. Of course I dont want them to suffer discrimination at work. I dont want them to suffer any more harm on top of the damage they have already inflicted on their body. However they support, and have wanted me to support financially, charities that promote this dangerous ideology. I won't participate in promoting harm to children and when relatives try to spout fake science at me they get short shrift. I've used their chosen name and pronouns, although I'm getting fed up of pronouns and it may only be in their presence in future. When they need medical care - and they will - it should be in the right ward for their sex.

They have at least one mental health diagnosis and before they fell into the clutches of the trans activists would have grown up to be happily gay. I dont support homosexual conversion therapy. As far as I know they are not planning to detransition or sue the Tavistock. Their health is permanently damaged, their trans partner has damaged their health so badly they can not work full time. In a few years their friends will be starting families, they wont be able to do so.

I'm furious at the safeguarding failures that led to this.

I wouldn't trust any 'happier after transition' article (in the Guardian no less, where journalists have been hounded out for having differing views), it's far too politicised and too complex and if it's not well understood by professionals, how reliable can the results of any survey be? https://genspect.org/to-help-trans-identifying-kids-follow-the-science/
I wouldn't be in a hurry to believe any 'less happy after transition' articles either. No one agrees on what half the definitions mean.

What a great thread to read - so many insightful thoughtful posts.
Thank you.

“a recent conversation with a male colleague where he laments the real harms done by an attitude that trans girls shouldn't play sports with 'other' girls.... that poor girl... all she wants is to enjoy her sport.... why are people so bigoted?”

Haven’t RTFT so apologies if someone else has already covered this but in my view the response to this line of argument from men should be: what a shame male sports teams are so bigoted that they don’t want to accept another male on their team if that player doesn’t confirm to masculine gender stereotypes.

Why does a female player have to lose her place on the female team so that a male can take that place instead? Why can’t the male trans person continue to play sport with other males? Why does a transgender identity make that male person unacceptable to the rest of the team?

Thank you all so much for all the input I am going to read it all through again carefully.
yes all my years of experience of working with people in distress tells me that for many this is a new way to express that distress.
I listened to the ‘inside the Tavistock’ podcast last week and I was really horrified at the apparent lack of attention to the ethics involved. How can a distressed teenager make a decision on irreversible treatments?
It’s such a relief to be able to discuss these matters as it doesn’t seem possible in real life.

This a hundred times. And then change womens sport for womens toilets, womens crisis centres, womens changing rooms, womens refuges, womens hospital wards, womens prisons. In every case the expectation and the very loud message is that women will swallow their instincts, anger, discomfort and wellbeing to accommodate the needs and feelings of men, but there is never any mention or even suggestion of men being told to change their attitudes and adjust their prejudices.

In fairness to men, I've never seen any actual evidence that trans women aren't welcome to play on men's sports teams or use men's toilets.

It seems to be more that they want to be with the women.

Nor could it be shown that they are not innate.

Not innate isn't a neutral default if there is an inability to create good conclusive evidence due to the complexity of the systems involved.

There have been separate sexes for something like 2 billion years, well before we were humans, or mammals. Many other mammals today, like other life forms, show behavioral differences by sex, many of which parallel the ones we see in humans. Our bodies, hormones, and brains aren't fundamentally that different than other mammals either. On the face of it, the idea that human beings are somehow outside of that seems unlikely.

The only reason I can see to default to the view that there are probably no innate differences of this kind is because it fits in with an ideological position.

Yes that’s true, but the line of argument which the OP was up against was a man claiming there was “real harm” to males who declare a transgender identity and who want a place on the female team if they are not given what they want by “bigots”. So the way to deal with that from a man (in my opinion, fwiw) is to turn that back on them and put them on the spot.

And if that man’s argument is “Oh no no no, we men aren’t bigoted, it’s just that if males who declare a transgender identity really really want a place on the female team, it’s mean to deny them that” then the next response for the OP is “But what about the female player who really really wants a place on that team? why is it ok for her to lose out but not the male? After all, she can’t go and play in the male team, it wouldn’t be safe for her or fair on her. And you’ve just said the male with a transgender identity would be welcome and safe on the male team. So why can’t the male with a transgender identity take up that option and allow the female player to keep her place on the team?”

Sorry - can you please tell me what you have read on here and elsewhere, first before I comment anymore. There are plenty of sources which would allow you to come on here without the naivety you are expressing. You said you peaked a few months ago - what peaked the issue for you suddenly? Perhaps we can direct your interest more closely.

Possibly, but scientists seem not to have found any evidence, whereas there is a lit of research showing how culture causes gender differences. Of course feminism is an ideological position, but I'd need some evidence of the brain differences or other essences that some trans people claim make them the opposite sex to that 'assigned' to them.

Transition has a 100% failure rate insofar as it's impossible to change sex. If some of the people who take wrong sex hormones, or have genital surgery, or wear non-traditional clothes, or call themselves by traditionally opposite sex names, or call themselves the opposite sex, or call themselves trans, or think silently in their own heads that they are trans and are happy, bully for them. It doesn't actually prove any kind of point and it doesn't change my opinion.

I'm very concerned that the kids and young people who say that "transition" made them happy would have ultimately been happier, and more importantly, healthier had they not "transitioned".

Beyond that I'm not that bothered whether "trans" people are happier for "transitioning". I'm bothered about single sex spaces, children reaching adulthood physically in tact, institutions following the actual law (not stonewall law), having words to describe women's lives and bodies and experiences, being able to state facts about material reality without losing my job or the police coming to my door etc. etc.

Care homes are starting to report that people who had their genitals removed and who go on to develop demensia are distraught every day when they see that their genitals are not there.

Pretty horrific imho.

This.

I'm important too. I refuse to become a 3rd class citizen ( men then men-who-say-theyre-women, then women).

No. Sex matters.

@PorcelinaV that was just one study . A systematic review of the literature makes it crystal clear that transition is good for transgender people.

“This search found a robust international consensus in the peer-reviewed literature that gender transition, including medical treatments such as hormone therapy and surgeries, improves the overall well-being of transgender individuals. The literature also indicates that greater availability of medical and social support for gender transition contributes to better quality of life for those who identify as transgender.”

And, also, importantly:

”4. Regrets following gender transition are extremely rare and have become even rarer as both surgical techniques and social support have improved. Pooling data from numerous studies demonstrates a regret rate ranging from .3 percent to 3.8 percent. Regrets are most likely to result from a lack of social support after transition or poor surgical outcomes using older techniques.”

https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

Responsible adults only have to look at the sheer number of children, teenagers and young adults caught up in this to know this will end terribly for so many of them. And as previous posters have pointed out, the deliberate avoidance of detailed research is very telling about what's being hidden.

A systematic review of the literature makes it crystal clear that transition is good for transgender people.

🤣 This old chestnut again?! There was a previous TRA poster who loved to link to that Cornell page.

Why not post more recent systematic reviews done independently that show no benefit?

OP, if you want to see the best examples of trans people “living their best lives” I recommend r/phallo on Reddit. It’s full of females who have undergone surgery or thinking about surgery to create a phallus and they talk candidly about it. A common post is something like:

”I’m 6 months post op, I’ve had multiple complications, fistula formation, my mouth is still painful after they used cheek lining for my urethra, I still have a catheter in and I need another op next week, but I’m so happy I’m on this journey finally!”

Accompanied by a photo of said phallus, a surgically altered forearm, and comments underneath saying “well done bro, happy for you!”

Living their best lives.

https://reddit.com/r/phallo/s/41bABZUf77