(Un)scientific American: "ROGD is not a thing"

[BonfireLady]

Apologies if there is already a thread and I missed it.

Scientific American has released an article saying that ROGD is "not a thing". From the article:
Evidence Undermines ‘Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria’ ClaimsFears of “social contagion,” used to support anti-transgender legislation, are not supported by science

A recent study claiming to describe more than 1,600 possible cases of a “socially contagious syndrome” was retracted in June for failing to obtain ethics approval from an institutional review board.

The article then goes on to "debunk" ROGD. Who could possibly believe that social contagion happens with teenage girls, right? But its main argument still remains that the paper didn't get ethics approval. Yes.... it does appear to be a problem that the scientific community don't like approving any research that challenges the affirmation only narrative.

If anyone has Twitter, any peer reviews and comments on this thread would be greatly appreciated.

https://twitter.com/BonfireLady/status/1697126765687099612?t=e7H4bZSheb5z8CdtkOTfnA&s=19

Link to the article:
Evidence Undermines ‘Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria’ Claims

If there were certain brain differences you could point to, and someone showed these differences on a scan, but denied having a trans identity, then presumably their belief is more important than biology here.

So what is key to being trans is taking place at the level of mind and belief.

I guess if in the future there was enough evidence that X difference always seems to produce a trans identity then that would be interesting.

It's plausible to me that biology could be playing a role, so a certain difference could make trans identity more likely.

But this of course tells us nothing that their identity is "real" rather than just a biological basis for them having a delusion.

Ah, don't worry. I'm comfortable with apologising specifically in the context that I did. Mainly because I can empathise with how someone might feel (angry, scared etc) if they feel like the very core of who they are is being challenged. I think that's what's behind a lot of the TRA anger.
But I'm absolutely not going to apologise for protecting my daughter from a) being drawn in to a belief without her realising that that's what's happening and b) the impact that can follow from this belief. It's very different from being drawn towards the "standard" Christian or Muslim beliefs - the potential impacts are more on the extreme end. Not as necessarily as catastrophic as David Icke and Waco or someone believing that they will enter paradise if they blow up other people but very much along the theme of what can happen when one person's belief impacts other people.

As for being drawn in, I'd rather debate than not. I can ignore a barrage of insults and focus on the substance (if there is enough of it) if needs be. Obviously I'd rather have respect extended when I feel that I've done that myself but, equally, I have a thick skin and am no pushover. TBH I find the 'friendly fire' that I've had on this MN board far harder to deal with. Obviously I wouldn't stand there with someone screaming words in my face but the internet is great. I can simply choose to scroll on by if I don't see any value in engaging.

To clarify, "this MN board" = the board in general. Not this thread.

I've been in some meaty conversations. I'm totally up for having my viewpoint challenged as that's how I learn but there has been the odd occasion where it's felt rather barbed or condescending. Thankfully not that often and really, it's just an illustration of the fact that this isn't a homogeneously voiced echo chamber.

This thread is a good example of the damage that SA has done, convincing people that this is a science based diagnosis.

I also think though that it's important to realize how much heavy lisfting the word "dysphoria" is doing here, in part simply because it sounds like a medical diagnosis.

But if we understand that body dysphoria, in whatever form, is a totally normal part of being a teenager, that really changes things. The rapid, significant changes in the body make many teens feel that they are literally in the wrong body. Their nervous system is altering in a profound way. In a certain sense, it is literally a new body, with new cells, it doesn't feel the same way, it doesn't move the same way, it's balance is different, it occupies space differently, and it looks different. It starts to do things like producing semen, or menstruating, all outside the control of the individual, and not always very comfortable, troublesome for almost all. It's really common for many teenagers to feel a bit like they are having an out of body experience.

This only settles down as a result of time, those neural connections and body become natural feeling, it becomes more routine to take care of bodily functions, that face in the mirror becomes familiar.

Then there are the hormonal and emotional and psychological changes, which can be equally disconcerting. And the fact that teens have elevated emotional responses compared to kids or adults makes it worse. (And that is a normal part of being a teen. Totally expected, part of how the body and brain mature.)

And then there is the fitting into society element. Taking on adult responsibilities. Being seen as a part of the adult world. Leaving comforting childhood things behind. Making decisions that may have long term impacts. And not least, starting to relate to other people sexually. Both being interested oneself, but also other adults begin to see you as a sexual person too, which can feel very weird and scary. But again - totally normal, and this process is a necessary part of growing up.

I think a lot of what ends up as what we are calling RODG has it's origins in this kind of experience, which kids seem to believe is abnormal or a sign of something wrong, that needs to be fixed. Maybe in part because parenting and school now doesn't much emphasize working through hard things. But mainly because they are being told that discomfort - and I mean really serious discomfort and upset - with the body is "dysphoria" rather than a totally normal part of adolescence that affects 90% of kids.

I think a good 50 percent of adolescent girls find puberty and their changing body scary and distressing. I know I certainly did. I didn't want to grow up, I wasn't ready for it. My friends felt the same. Part of the problem is that our culture of toxic positivity nowadays leads everyone to believe that they "should" be happy about everything and that if something is upsetting, distressing or anxiety provoking then it is bad, atypical and needs fixing.

Puberty is distressing and scary for many many kids, especially girls, and that is completely normal. If you find growing breasts and starting periods terrifying, you are normal. If you are delighted by it, you are also normal. Not everything needs solving.

Part of the overlap between autism and gender identity issues is imo linked to issues around flexibility of thinking/ black and white thinking, part around intrinsic social communication differences that decrease the likelihood of feeling comfortable with ones NT peers, and part around the sensory melee of a changing body and the mess of periods, scratchiness of hair, lumpiness of breasts etc. If you hate bras, hate tights, hate skirts, hate periods, hate wearing make up and scoff at people prepared to have uncomfortable feet in high heels, if you find talking about boys vacuous, if you couldn't care less about soap operas or boy bands, if the girls tell you you are weird, if you don't fit in at all....it's easy to see why you might ascribe all that to not being a girl, but actually being a boy.

I don't think all autistic people are inflexible or black and white in their thinking, but I do recognise a common characteristic of latching onto a special interest, sometimes even an obsession. When that is coupled with an echo chamber or a culture in which questioning is discouraged, it can perhaps lead to an excessive certainty which comes across as black and white thinking. It is the discouragement of questions that is the most insidious aspect of our culture - we are required to go along with everything our tribe stands for.

Well difficulties with flexible thinking is one of the core diagnostic criteria for autism!

It doesn't necessarily mean "inflexible" though, I didn't say that as that is not what it means.

It means struggling with ambiguity, or change, or paying attention to things not of interest, or reconsidering, or parsing inaccuracies of spoken or written language....

Great post @Rudderneck - also @Diverze , though I suspect the figure for adolescents feeling discomfort is nearer 100%

I suppose I could go back through your posts and quote the dehumanising things you, personally, have said, but really, what's the point? You are part of a political movement that uses grotesque sexual harassment of vulnerable people, justified by intense victim blaming of those same vulnerable people, with the ultimate aim of encouraging horrific abuse of those same vulnerable people. If you can be a part of all this you clearly have no moral compass so what point is there, really?

@BonfireLady I haven’t seen anything you have said that is dehumanising, and I’m not convinced that TheRedHound has seen anything dehumanising in your posts either. I hope that translating AnCuRuadh into English isn’t dehumanising, but it wouldn’t surprise me to find that it is, just as so very many things are apparently transphobic.

You are part of a political movement that uses grotesque sexual harassment of vulnerable people, justified by intense victim blaming of those same vulnerable people, with the ultimate aim of encouraging horrific abuse of those same vulnerable people.

You get all that from wanting to protect single sex spaces and services? Or having doubts about giving puberty blockers to kids?

I get all that from being on the recieving end of the harassment your movement does. Since you mention it, though, calling for the segregation of a vulnerable minority and the abuse of vulnerable children are certainly very obvious red flags, to say the least...

I'm actually quite chuffed whenever I run into someone who knows a little Gaelic. Pity you spend your time in such a cesspool though...

Honestly, I'm still amazed at how little self awareness this whole forum has... It's like you're going out of your way to demonstrate as many different ways of doing bigotry as possible... 🤔

Oh god, I'm so glad I didn't see this before I had my supper... Openly promising child abuse if your child doesn't turn out the way you want? Well, I guess we've found the ultimate dehumanisation, haven't we? You've decided your child is an object you possess, that you're entitled to change them any way you please and that if they object their objections don't count... Jesus, this is sick...

Not that I'm surprised, ofc, this is why we fight you in the first place after all... 😞

And for the record, "challenging peoples identities," as you so glibly put it, is only adding insult to injury. The pervasive abuse of trans people, especially the child abuse, is the injury.

Bonfire

I am sure at this point you realise that you are most certainly not talking about abusing your child in any way. The above is a script that seems to be being repeated across numerous threads with a focus on child and sexual abuse accusations featuring heavily. These accusations are being leveraged at any person who doesn’t simply affirm whatever this visitor needs affirmed tonight.

There is a whole lot of projection going on for the second night. All under any guise to abuse for a second night.

Denying necessary medical care is abuse. You know that damn well, that's why you make up elaborate fantasies to deny the necessity...

Thanks again for the live demonstration of the tactics used by abusers. You have done a really good job over the past two nights. It is really instructive for people who read the threads you have targeted.

Still no links to any evidence though. That is also clear to readers.

That is because you have no evidence to support your posts. I suspect that education was not the intention anyway.

I think maybe there was some unfounded optimism

1. patronise
2. insult
3. rant
4. ... profit?

Thank you, that's a really useful point.

I think the 'sex positivity' movement may have started with noble aims in trying to address shame and fear about bodily processes- but as you note our culture has repackaged this as a pretence that everything is always wonderful and any pain or suffering is more a mental failing than a real condition of life.

It's sad that every attempt to help women and girls can become so quickly a way to silence them.

Supper, aye?

Ah I see having had their arse handed to them on the first thread they stomped all over with their very male privilege & DARVO tactics shinning though they’ve come to this one today to do the same

Just stop it with the moral blackmail. The biggest lie the trans sledgehammer is built on, that has obliterated natural restraint from so many naturally caring and sympathetic liberals, is that of suicide ideation.

Well, we've had untold generations of young people, and there has never been a spike in suicides amongst the young. Never.

The whole fake phenomenon is built upon a lie. A lie that has scarred this particular young generation, and if trans allies had their way, for generations to come.

The only thing that is necessary, is not disastrous medical "care", but adults once again looking out for the best interests of the young, not falling for propaganda, and telling young people they'res no such thing as "born in the wrong body".

Its you who is the problem, not GCs who haven't abandoned physical reality.

Sadly the poster was here the night before as well and used the same tactics. I think that they just came by for an attempt to continue to abuse Bonfire because Bonfire established boundaries and spoke of relevant personal experience.

Hence making the ideal target in the eyes of such a poster to come back and target again.

I suspect though that they read through the replies of either threads and realised that we just kept pointing out the abuse tactics and how that every post did indeed show male socialisation and male privilege and realised this place was a lost cause.

No one was going to bite back with some (desired?) retaliatory abuse and no one was going to affirm either. I guess it is pretty boring if you spent all that time poking and prodding and just got so little in return.

Denying necessary medical care is abuse. You know that damn well, that's why you make up elaborate fantasies to deny the necessity...

Mastectomy of healthy breasts.

Unlicensed use of strong drugs known to cause severe, long-lasting consequences such as osteoporosis.

Prevention of brain and body maturation.

Use of drugs that cause such severe vaginal and uterine atrophy that major surgery is the only solution. Hysterectomy can result in prolapse and incontinence for the rest of the individual's life.

These interventions can result in sterilisation and the inability to orgasm. The earlier they are applied, the higher the likelihood that the individual will never experience pleasurable sex.

'Necessary medical care'?