(Un)scientific American: "ROGD is not a thing"

[BonfireLady]

Apologies if there is already a thread and I missed it.

Scientific American has released an article saying that ROGD is "not a thing". From the article:
Evidence Undermines ‘Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria’ ClaimsFears of “social contagion,” used to support anti-transgender legislation, are not supported by science

A recent study claiming to describe more than 1,600 possible cases of a “socially contagious syndrome” was retracted in June for failing to obtain ethics approval from an institutional review board.

The article then goes on to "debunk" ROGD. Who could possibly believe that social contagion happens with teenage girls, right? But its main argument still remains that the paper didn't get ethics approval. Yes.... it does appear to be a problem that the scientific community don't like approving any research that challenges the affirmation only narrative.

If anyone has Twitter, any peer reviews and comments on this thread would be greatly appreciated.

https://twitter.com/BonfireLady/status/1697126765687099612?t=e7H4bZSheb5z8CdtkOTfnA&s=19

Link to the article:
Evidence Undermines ‘Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria’ Claims

Helmuth tweeted about white sparrows having 4 sexes not that long ago. Educated at a private liberal college and then at the University of California I think we can all guess what her stance on this subject is.

Helmuth tweeted about white sparrows having 4 sexes

https://twitter.com/laurahelmuth/status/1658952315032698883

It didn't go down very well and even attracted a Twitter Community Note, that is a clarification that's often applied when something looks misleading or like disinformation.

Laura looks like she got a headache and had to skip biology classes whenever something had to be dissected, or shouted down others during public speaking classes at school.

https://unherd.com/thepost/why-is-scientific-american-targeting-my-trans-research/

A serious lack of logical thinking here apparently. "The study claiming to demonstrate the truth of X was unethical", even if true, does not entail "X is false".

Well, there are countless "detransition" tales on YouTube from (mainly girls) who openly and freely admit that the influence of social media and peer pressure from likeminded "friends" is what made them transition, and that without that influence it would NEVER have happened. Decisions which they bitterly regret of course, especially the girls whose bodies are irreversibly changed.

In my 15 year old daughter's year alone (of a small school) there are 5 trans students, 4 of which are girls.
The boy (who now comes to school dressed in pink, complete with mini skirt and pig tails, I kid you not) is now sharing the girls toilet and playing on the girls netball team.
My daughter's registration teacher is the mother of a MTF trans teenager, and she has trans flags all over the classroom and apparently talks about trans issues constantly.
It's endemic.

Whatever Laura Helmuth thinks she might be doing here, it's most definitely not science. It's politics. @nauticant absolutely! I missed the original posting of the article on Twitter. Yep, quite a few comments pointing out just how unscientific they are being. Re the Helmuth sparrow tweet, sadly I can't see it on its full glory as she has blocked me but the comments underneath it were interesting! @RealityFan Yes, back to biology class please, Laura, before you put any other "science" in your "scientific" magazine.

@Asurvivor A worthy topic to de-lurk on 😁 Obviously all the impacts relating to gender identity belief are important but IMO, the harm being done to children is the worst of the worst.

You can’t “debunk” ROGD. There wasn’t dysphoria and now their is, rapidly. Even if you believe that these children have always had an innate “gender identity” that is some form of cross sex identity, the only way you can debunk ROGD is by saying a young child has always had dysphoria about it, but kept it soooo well hidden no one noticed. Not kept any cross sex identity hidden, but kept the dysphoria hidden. What bullshit. @NotBadConsidering Exactly this!

@Diverze That's really good news and also really encouraging to hear that your daughter became more comfortable with her body around the age of 19-21. Mine is still on that journey. We have our ups and downs but she's getting there. This bit really resonated with me:

I still find it incredible, even now, that the most effective way to safeguard my distressed autistic teen through that time was to ensure that no medical or psychological professional came anywhere near them in regard to their dysphoria;

That's the other half of the ROGD pincer movement. This and the social contagion effectively bookend all of it. Putting my daughter's mental health care on hold until CAMHS would agree to (informally - through lots of letters and conversations) our safeguarding request was one of her hardest decisions I have ever had to make in my life. She was self-harming and had been admitted in to hospital three times in one month, saying at times that she wanted to kill herself. The other thing I needed them to agree to before we would continue was to correct their assertion in the handover letter, from the hospital CAMHS crisis team to the local CAMHS team, that she "identifies as male". She never did. Eventually I managed to unpick how that had been entered in to the notes. I wrote about the whole experience in a wider context here:
https://www.transgendertrend.com/teenage-gender-identity-crisis/ I didn't go into the following detail in the article but my letters (crisis team didn't have email correspondence address) to both the counsellor and the head of the service went unanswered. I put in a Subject Access Request (legally binding) request for copies of all the data held on my daughter so that I could understand how those words got there. When I eventually did speak to the counsellor and head of service, it was a really positive conversation. In other words, I had to put in considerable effort over a concerted period of time, all the while knowing my daughter was in crisis. It shouldn't have to be this way.

Funny Marci, because the same could be said about the suicide statistics and the better an alive son than a dead daughter crap Exactly @Boiledbeetle I have heard this line several times in various settings in relation to my daughter. When it's been said to me, I have no doubt that the person saying it was doing so out of a (misplaced) sense of kindness but parents like me shouldn't need to steady themselves to be "hardened" to it. It's one of the scariest things to hear. I recently had a parent of a trans identifying (now adult, most surgery done) child say this to me about their own child and, even now, it still jolts me for a split second about my own daughter.

If research is stifled, if research is restricted to only one aspect of the condition and one view of the condition, how are these patients best interests being served? Totally agree @JellySaurus This is one of the reasons I was so angry at what both the editor and the article said. In blocking me, I guess she doesn't want to see my "research" either.. 😁

@IcakethereforeIam Yes, I remember that thread and the initial confusion! 😁 I hadn't stayed up to date on all the comments though and didn't spot the article from this thread on page two. Although it's a crossover discussion, I think this article along with the editor's "not a thing" tweet warrants the new thread.

@HootyMcBooby76 Indeed. If you've got lots of girls and women saying this, you'd have to be utterly mad (and sparrow-minded 😉) to say it is "not a thing".

@PorcelinaV In the article that you posted, it's so encouraging to read that Michael Bailey, Lisa Littman and Ken Zucker are collaborating on new research in to ROGD. I have no doubt that they will be forced through several technicality hoops but they will be wise to all of that and I have confidence that they will prevail.

Unfortunately the woke brigade have found an easy solution to this accusation, saying that calling it endemic and saying children are being influenced is the same fear that surrounded kids being turned gay. It is a very simple yet powerful dismissal.

Of course the fact that one cannot compare sexuality and 'identity' (whatever that even means) is completely ignored.

It's always stupid to say two different things are the same, just because. Sure, you can compare sometimes, but you still have to look at the reality of a situation. A banana and a cucumber an be compared in terms of shape, and both are good to eat, but they are totally different kinds of plants.

Anyway - SA and other publications like NG have a lot to answer for with this. They are a huge factor in why so many middle class, university educated people believe gender ideology is a scientifically and medically proven phenomena. These are science publications they read and trust, and science now for many people is a kind of dogmatic source for true facts. (Rather than what it really is, a process with some complicated, and not always clear, assumptions and influences around it.)

These people don't believe us when we say this stuff is made up, because these publications have told them otherwise.

I'm sure I'm wasting my time answering this one but why not...

1. why is every single teenage girl who declares their new cross sex identity as a teenager so good at hiding their dysphoria about it in their early years?

Answer: You get very good at hiding things if the consequences of being found are horrific abuse.

1. are all the parents, every single one of every single teenager with no exceptions terrible parents for failing to notice their child’s dysphoria about their secret hidden cross sex identify in their early years?

Answer: Like I said, you get very good at hiding things when the consequences of not hiding are so terrible. There's nothing to be ashamed of if you didn't realise something was going on with your child. That said, Lisa Littman specifically recruited parents who were trying to do conversion therapy on their children. I think it's pretty obvious why parents who don't want their child to be trans would be in denial about their child being trans.

1. if gender identity is innate, what does actually explain why some humans declare a cross sex identity at 4 years of age, 12 years of age, or 50 years of age?

Answer: Abuse doesn't stop just because you become an adult.

1. if there is no contagion and gender is innate, how is gender fluidity explained and how are detransitioners explained?

Answer: Everybody has access to a certain amount of the gender spectrum. Trying to live in a body that falls outside the appropriate part of the gender spectrum causes dysphoria. Genderfluid people are simply lucky enough to have access to more of the gender specrtrum than others. As for detransitioners, they are simply victims of conversion therapy and other transphobic abuse...

1. how can it be explained that girls and women themselves describe they felt no dysphoria until adolescence? Are they deluding themselves?

Answer: Most of the gendered features of the human body develop during puberty. If you have trouble understanding why a trans girl would be significantly more distressed when she starts growing a beard, or why a trans boy would be significantly more distressed when he starts growing breasts I really don't know what to say to you.

1. If it’s just because they feel comfortable “coming out” in adolescence now compared to previously, where are all the women in their 30s and older who didn’t feel comfortable to “come out” decades ago?

Answer: I'm sure this will surprise you, but trasgender people don't typically come to mumsnet to announce their transition to the assembled transphobes. The reduction in transphobia in the last ten years has, in fact, seen very large numbers of people of all ages and genders come out and start transitioning. You just haven't noticed because you live in a transphobic echo chamber...

1. if there is no contagion and gender is innate, how is gender fluidity explained and how are detransitioners explained?

Answer: Everybody has access to a certain amount of the gender spectrum. Trying to live in a body that falls outside the appropriate part of the gender spectrum causes dysphoria. Genderfluid people are simply lucky enough to have access to more of the gender specrtrum than others.

What is the 'gender spectrum' and how does one gain access to it?

What makes a body 'fall outside the appropriate part of the gender spectrum'?

What I'm talking about is the range of physical forms your body can take without causing dysphoria. Some people simply have to be male or female, and if they're not it causes incredible distress. Other folks could be either and simply not be distressed about it. To put it in simple terms genderfluid people are people who simply aren't limited by dysphoria...

I can assure you [now deleted poster] that none of the teenage girls I know who have transitioned aged 15- 20 would have suffered 'horrific abuse' if they had expressed that they were actually boys as children. These are girls and families I've known all their lives

What they all so far had in common was neurodiversity and school bullying prior to transition, along with being female.

The only female child transitioner I know detransitioned in middle school. Zero abuse at home. It was a long time ago, 25 years maybe.

I do agree that there's a time lag in presentation as trans which will mean as numbers deciding transition is for them rise, more middle aged women presenting as men as time goes on. I hope though that the big numbers we see today reduce over time like other cultural/psychological phenomena tend to.

So they wouldn't have suffered abuse... But they were already being bullied? Funny how that works, isn't it? Methinks you are telling yourself fibs here...

Some people simply have to be male or female, and if they're not it causes incredible distress.

We are all either male or female, and people can't change sex. If people are distressed about the sex they are, what makes them believe that they would be any less distressed if they were the opposite sex (which of course they can't be because people can't change sex)? They can't possibly know what it would be like to be the opposite sex and they can never know that because they can't change sex. Pretending that people can change sex doesn't help anyone.

Yes they were being bullied. Don't you think that bullied people especially children often internalise the abuse and think that they are the ones who need to change, rather than the bullies or the school culture?

In what world do trans people get bullied less than cis people? You need to get in touch with reality here, instead of living in whatever fantasy this is you've made for yourself...

Flatly denying reality will do you no good, but it will make me have a good laugh so there is that I suppose... :)

🤣🤣🤣🤣 wow. Like the 70s 80s 90s never happened for this poster. Are you having a laugh? You must be to spout this. Gender is a set of social constructs not innate.

Denying reality? Do you believe that people can change sex?

Yes I do think that gender nonconforming girls may be bullied and sexualised less once presenting as boys. I've seen it happen.

Hi @ancuruadh ,

Certainly an interesting perspective. I've added some thoughts in response:

Answer: You get very good at hiding things if the consequences of being found are horrific abuse.

From the follow-on comments it sounds like you're referring to bullying (by peers) and/or parents rejecting their children. Typically speaking, I should imagine bullying by peers for anything that is considered "different" is going to make children hide or reduce those differences. Re parents, I'd imagine most would do the opposite and try and give children the confidence to embrace their differences. Two big areas where children would find challenges are most likely a) playing with people or toys that are typically considered "normal" for the opposite sex. This would mostly impact boys being called gay etc - sadly this still happens, including at primary school. For girls, the biggest way to be different is to not be in the cool clique. Everything seems to point to either someone who would grow up to be gay (there's definitely a noticeable overlap with a preference for things/people that are stereotypically "normally" for the opposite sex) or autistic (processing things differently, therefore behaving differently). Sadly some effeminate boys will be abused at home by intolerant parents. But mostly the abuse is likely to be bullying, simply for being different.

Answer: Abuse doesn't stop just because you become an adult.
Very true. Perhaps there is a general agreement here that people identify as transgender at different ages for a variety of reasons but, in general, someone who has been abused in some way for being "different" may speak up with what they see as the answer for themselves at various different ages?

Answer: Everybody has access to a certain amount of the gender spectrum. Trying to live in a body that falls outside the appropriate part of the gender spectrum causes dysphoria. Genderfluid people are simply lucky enough to have access to more of the gender specrtrum than others.
I don't have anything to say in response to this, similar to how I wouldn't be able to comment on any specifics about Christian beliefs when it gets in to the faith end of things e.g. the difference between following the 10 commandments because it's a kind way to be (I agree) and God being the father of Jesus (as an atheist, I'm not going to have anything to add to that - other than "I understand that you believe that, but I don't"). I don't have a belief in gender identity so for me, it's very much the same.
As for detransitioners, they are simply victims of conversion therapy and other transphobic abuse...
Or could they be people who did have a belief in gender identity (and saw transition as right for them) but no longer do (and are now processing their feelings about everything that they have been through)?

Answer: Most of the gendered features of the human body develop during puberty. If you have trouble understanding why a trans girl would be significantly more distressed when she starts growing a beard, or why a trans boy would be significantly more distressed when he starts growing breasts I really don't know what to say to you.
Other than a tweak (because I don't believe in gender identity - so I don't use the word gender in this context) to say sex-based, when it comes to the body changes that happen during puberty, this makes sense to me. Yes, I can absolutely see why someone with a belief in gender identity who sees themselves as the opposite "gender" is likely to become distressed as they experience what they strongly feel is the wrong puberty. I have no doubt that gender dysphoria is real and that it is distressing.

Answer: I'm sure this will surprise you, but trasgender people don't typically come to mumsnet to announce their transition to the assembled transphobes. The reduction in transphobia in the last ten years has, in fact, seen very large numbers of people of all ages and genders come out and start transitioning. You just haven't noticed because you live in a transphobic echo chamber...
Fair point that there will be very few transgender people who come on here, even fewer who would do so during any stage of their transition. Some do come on here, sometimes to debate, sometimes just to snipe/shout. Getting out of echo chambers is definitely important, across the board. Many posters on here do talk to trans people. I'd say even more posters on here try to look at different sources, from different biases, to actively try and avoid being in an echo chamber e.g. reading from newspapers that they would never have read before (I only ever used to read the Guardian for example, now I still read that and look at the BBC but I also read all the "right wing" papers and Pink News too - so that I hear a variety of voices)

autistic (processing things differently, therefore behaving differently).

This was point b in my first paragraph.

"From the follow-on comments it sounds like you're referring to bullying (by peers) and/or parents rejecting their children. Typically speaking, I should imagine bullying by peers for anything that is considered "different" is going to make children hide or reduce those differences. Re parents, I'd imagine most would do the opposite and try and give children the confidence to embrace their differences. Two big areas where children would find challenges are most likely a) playing with people or toys that are typically considered "normal" for the opposite sex. This would mostly impact boys being called gay etc - sadly this still happens, including at primary school. For girls, the biggest way to be different is to not be in the cool clique. Everything seems to point to either someone who would grow up to be gay (there's definitely a noticeable overlap with a preference for things/people that are stereotypically "normally" for the opposite sex) or autistic (processing things differently, therefore behaving differently). Sadly some effeminate boys will be abused at home by intolerant parents. But mostly the abuse is likely to be bullying, simply for being different."

No, no, no and no. First of all, we are talking about much worse than bullying. I was routinely sexually harassed as a child and my experience was relatively mild compared to most trans people. To put it simply, any transgender person you meet is almost guaranteed to suffer PTSD from childhood abuse, that's the level of abuse we're talking about.

Secondly when it comes to gay kids you are getting cause and effect reversed. Transphobic parents routinely try to force trans kids to identify as gay on the grounds that it's "not as bad." There is a pervasive delusion in society that being trans and gay are somehow the same thing and a lot of trans people, both children and adults, simply go along with it to make life easier.

Thirdly being autistic has nothing to do with being trans.

You seem to think you can throw in a subtle "trans people don't actually exist, trololololo" and I won't notice. Well guess what? I did notice. Be more respectful next time.

"I don't have anything to say in response to this, similar to how I wouldn't be able to comment on any specifics about Christian beliefs when it gets in to the faith end of things e.g. the difference between following the 10 commandments because it's a kind way to be (I agree) and God being the father of Jesus (as an atheist, I'm not going to have anything to add to that - other than "I understand that you believe that, but I don't"). I don't have a belief in gender identity so for me, it's very much the same."

Biology is not a belief. You are utterly demented.

"As for detransitioners, they are simply victims of conversion therapy and other transphobic abuse...
Or could they be people who did have a belief in gender identity (and saw transition as right for them) but no longer do (and are now processing their feelings about everything that they have been through)?"

Being trans is not a belief, it is a biological fact. You cannot change the neurological structure of you brain by declaring it a belief, that's absurd. Detransitioners are victims of grooming and abuse, nothing else.

I am not going to reply to the rest of what you posted because it's fairly anodyne and because I'm quite thoroughly sick of you disrespectful attitude. You are clearly a delusional individual who thinks they can impose their delusions onto the world at large by manipulation and bullying. I suggest you learn some biology and get a better attitude if you want to have anything to say that any reasonable person will want to hear.

Thank you for attempting to answer these questions. Your answers show the ridiculousness of the opposition to the concept of ROGD.

Answer: You get very good at hiding things if the consequences of being found are horrific abuse.

So children as young as 3 or 4 are successfully hiding their distress about their gender? Children who scream if their sandwiches are cut into triangles instead of squares are fearful of disclosing their distress about a cross sex identify because of potential abuse? And parents don’t notice it because they’re abusive? Do you realise how nonsensical this sounds?

Answer: Like I said, you get very good at hiding things when the consequences of not hiding are so terrible. There's nothing to be ashamed of if you didn't realise something was going on with your child. That said, Lisa Littman specifically recruited parents who were trying to do conversion therapy on their children. I think it's pretty obvious why parents who don't want their child to be trans would be in denial about their child being trans.

Can you please point to your source that Lisa Littman ”recruited parents who were trying to do conversion therapy”? So all parents are stupid as well as abusive? They’re too stupid to notice their child is distressed about a cross sex identity but clever enough to know that if they spot it, woe betide that child if the are!

Answer: Abuse doesn't stop just because you become an adult.

So children who are living with abusive stupid parents in abusive households have no issue “coming out” as trans, but adults who are decades older and living independently are too fearful of doing so? Really?

Answer: Everybody has access to a certain amount of the gender spectrum. Trying to live in a body that falls outside the appropriate part of the gender spectrum causes dysphoria. Genderfluid people are simply lucky enough to have access to more of the gender specrtrum than others. As for detransitioners, they are simply victims of conversion therapy and other transphobic abuse...

I would echo the question above, how does one access the gender spectrum? How can a body fall outside of 106 of the 107 genders? How does a body fall inside the gender spectrum? I am still not clear how something can be both fixed and fluid.

I agree that detransitioners are victims of conversion therapy, but probably not in the way you think. You seem to be suggesting that detransitioners don’t know their own minds, and have changed their gender identity as a result of external factors? Do you believe it’s possible, therefore, for vulnerable people to have their gender identity influenced by external factors in both directions?

Answer: Most of the gendered features of the human body develop during puberty. If you have trouble understanding why a trans girl would be significantly more distressed when she starts growing a beard, or why a trans boy would be significantly more distressed when he starts growing breasts I really don't know what to say to you.

You're saying they had some distress (very well hidden obvs) but then they got more distressed. There are many people who are sure they had no distress prior to starting puberty. Are they lying or delusional? If a trans person is adamant they had no distress before puberty and it developed at the onset of secondary sexual characteristics, does that mean they aren’t really trans?

Answer: I'm sure this will surprise you, but trasgender people don't typically come to mumsnet to announce their transition to the assembled transphobes. The reduction in transphobia in the last ten years has, in fact, seen very large numbers of people of all ages and genders come out and start transitioning. You just haven't noticed because you live in a transphobic echo chamber...

So older adults are simultaneously living under a constant cloud of abuse and not coming out till later as a result but equally feeling more comfortable coming out now because of a reduction in society’s transphobia. Ok.

You say echo chamber, but you forget that everyone who posts here walks around in normal live interacting with people in all parts of our society: work, schools, social settings and so on. Yet I don’t know a single female over 30 who has decided to transition, but I know multiple teenage girls who are doing so. If 30+ year old adult females are transitioning at the same rate - very large numbers you say - as teenage girls I should come across them at the same rate it society. But I don’t. Why is that? It can’t be because of society’s transphobia because you say that’s better and that’s why they’re coming out more. Can you explain this? And it can’t be lack of visibility or because of lack of attention on my part because I know a few adult males who have decided to transition lately. But no females. Don’t you think it’s strange?