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Original poster

(Un)scientific American: "ROGD is not a thing"

104 replies

BonfireLady · 31/08/2023 07:17

Apologies if there is already a thread and I missed it.

Scientific American has released an article saying that ROGD is "not a thing". From the article:
Evidence Undermines ‘Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria’ ClaimsFears of “social contagion,” used to support anti-transgender legislation, are not supported by science

A recent study claiming to describe more than 1,600 possible cases of a “socially contagious syndrome” was retracted in June for failing to obtain ethics approval from an institutional review board.

The article then goes on to "debunk" ROGD. Who could possibly believe that social contagion happens with teenage girls, right? But its main argument still remains that the paper didn't get ethics approval. Yes.... it does appear to be a problem that the scientific community don't like approving any research that challenges the affirmation only narrative.

If anyone has Twitter, any peer reviews and comments on this thread would be greatly appreciated.

https://twitter.com/BonfireLady/status/1697126765687099612?t=e7H4bZSheb5z8CdtkOTfnA&s=19

Link to the article:
Evidence Undermines ‘Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria’ Claims

https://twitter.com/BonfireLady/status/1697126765687099612?s=19&t=e7H4bZSheb5z8CdtkOTfnA

OP posts:
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6
ancuruadh · 02/09/2023 03:35

NotBadConsidering · 02/09/2023 02:52

Thank you for attempting to answer these questions. Your answers show the ridiculousness of the opposition to the concept of ROGD.

Answer: You get very good at hiding things if the consequences of being found are horrific abuse.

So children as young as 3 or 4 are successfully hiding their distress about their gender? Children who scream if their sandwiches are cut into triangles instead of squares are fearful of disclosing their distress about a cross sex identify because of potential abuse? And parents don’t notice it because they’re abusive? Do you realise how nonsensical this sounds?

Answer: Like I said, you get very good at hiding things when the consequences of not hiding are so terrible. There's nothing to be ashamed of if you didn't realise something was going on with your child. That said, Lisa Littman specifically recruited parents who were trying to do conversion therapy on their children. I think it's pretty obvious why parents who don't want their child to be trans would be in denial about their child being trans.

Can you please point to your source that Lisa Littman ”recruited parents who were trying to do conversion therapy”? So all parents are stupid as well as abusive? They’re too stupid to notice their child is distressed about a cross sex identity but clever enough to know that if they spot it, woe betide that child if the are!

Answer: Abuse doesn't stop just because you become an adult.

So children who are living with abusive stupid parents in abusive households have no issue “coming out” as trans, but adults who are decades older and living independently are too fearful of doing so? Really?

Answer: Everybody has access to a certain amount of the gender spectrum. Trying to live in a body that falls outside the appropriate part of the gender spectrum causes dysphoria. Genderfluid people are simply lucky enough to have access to more of the gender specrtrum than others. As for detransitioners, they are simply victims of conversion therapy and other transphobic abuse...

I would echo the question above, how does one access the gender spectrum? How can a body fall outside of 106 of the 107 genders? How does a body fall inside the gender spectrum? I am still not clear how something can be both fixed and fluid.

I agree that detransitioners are victims of conversion therapy, but probably not in the way you think. You seem to be suggesting that detransitioners don’t know their own minds, and have changed their gender identity as a result of external factors? Do you believe it’s possible, therefore, for vulnerable people to have their gender identity influenced by external factors in both directions?

Answer: Most of the gendered features of the human body develop during puberty. If you have trouble understanding why a trans girl would be significantly more distressed when she starts growing a beard, or why a trans boy would be significantly more distressed when he starts growing breasts I really don't know what to say to you.

You're saying they had some distress (very well hidden obvs) but then they got more distressed. There are many people who are sure they had no distress prior to starting puberty. Are they lying or delusional? If a trans person is adamant they had no distress before puberty and it developed at the onset of secondary sexual characteristics, does that mean they aren’t really trans?

Answer: I'm sure this will surprise you, but trasgender people don't typically come to mumsnet to announce their transition to the assembled transphobes. The reduction in transphobia in the last ten years has, in fact, seen very large numbers of people of all ages and genders come out and start transitioning. You just haven't noticed because you live in a transphobic echo chamber...

So older adults are simultaneously living under a constant cloud of abuse and not coming out till later as a result but equally feeling more comfortable coming out now because of a reduction in society’s transphobia. Ok.

You say echo chamber, but you forget that everyone who posts here walks around in normal live interacting with people in all parts of our society: work, schools, social settings and so on. Yet I don’t know a single female over 30 who has decided to transition, but I know multiple teenage girls who are doing so. If 30+ year old adult females are transitioning at the same rate - very large numbers you say - as teenage girls I should come across them at the same rate it society. But I don’t. Why is that? It can’t be because of society’s transphobia because you say that’s better and that’s why they’re coming out more. Can you explain this? And it can’t be lack of visibility or because of lack of attention on my part because I know a few adult males who have decided to transition lately. But no females. Don’t you think it’s strange?

Show quote history

"I agree that detransitioners are victims of conversion therapy, but probably not in the way you think. You seem to be suggesting that detransitioners don’t know their own minds, and have changed their gender identity as a result of external factors? Do you believe it’s possible, therefore, for vulnerable people to have their gender identity influenced by external factors in both directions?"

I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your post because most of it is just the silly, abuse-excusing sort of dreck you'd expect, but I will answer this one because it's actually rather important.

Society is profoundly misogynistic. This means, among other things, that there is an immense amount of social pressure for everyone to fit themselves into one of two strictly defined boxes of gender. When a conversion therapist gets to work abusing some poor kid they have all that weight of social expectation to use, to say nothing of the immense amount of the abuse that any gender-non-conforming person has to deal with. (And no, trans people are not exempt from that, don't try that shit with me.) Any hypothetical "reverse conversion therapy," or whatever you want to call it, would have to overcome that enormous amount of social pressure, and overcome the hypothetical victims own reluctance to falsify their gender, whereas conventional conversion therapy can use the one to do the other. That's why "reverse conversion therapy" isn't actually a thing. Even if we wanted to do something like that we couldn't. We simply don't have the power to make it work.

NotBadConsidering · 02/09/2023 04:05

ancuruadh · 02/09/2023 03:35

"I agree that detransitioners are victims of conversion therapy, but probably not in the way you think. You seem to be suggesting that detransitioners don’t know their own minds, and have changed their gender identity as a result of external factors? Do you believe it’s possible, therefore, for vulnerable people to have their gender identity influenced by external factors in both directions?"

I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your post because most of it is just the silly, abuse-excusing sort of dreck you'd expect, but I will answer this one because it's actually rather important.

Society is profoundly misogynistic. This means, among other things, that there is an immense amount of social pressure for everyone to fit themselves into one of two strictly defined boxes of gender. When a conversion therapist gets to work abusing some poor kid they have all that weight of social expectation to use, to say nothing of the immense amount of the abuse that any gender-non-conforming person has to deal with. (And no, trans people are not exempt from that, don't try that shit with me.) Any hypothetical "reverse conversion therapy," or whatever you want to call it, would have to overcome that enormous amount of social pressure, and overcome the hypothetical victims own reluctance to falsify their gender, whereas conventional conversion therapy can use the one to do the other. That's why "reverse conversion therapy" isn't actually a thing. Even if we wanted to do something like that we couldn't. We simply don't have the power to make it work.

Show quote history

I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your post because most of it is just the silly, abuse-excusing sort of dreck you'd expect

Because you hack no answers. How dare you accuse me of “abuse-excusing”. I have more experience of dealing with childhood abuse and trauma than you will ever know. You are simultaneously disrespectful to the children who develop distress at the start of puberty and the parents of these children. If you genuinely believe that 100% of children presenting to gender clinics with gender distress at adolescence have really had lifelong hidden gender distress missed by abusive parents I don’t know what else to say. It’s so incredibly close-minded.

Society is profoundly misogynistic. This means, among other things, that there is an immense amount of social pressure for everyone to fit themselves into one of two strictly defined boxes of gender. When a conversion therapist gets to work abusing some poor kid they have all that weight of social expectation to use, to say nothing of the immense amount of the abuse that any gender-non-conforming person has to deal with. (And no, trans people are not exempt from that, don't try that shit with me.) Any hypothetical "reverse conversion therapy," or whatever you want to call it, would have to overcome that enormous amount of social pressure, and overcome the hypothetical victims own reluctance to falsify their gender, whereas conventional conversion therapy can use the one to do the other. That's why "reverse conversion therapy" isn't actually a thing. Even if we wanted to do something like that we couldn't. We simply don't have the power to make it work

This makes as about as much sense as “accessing the gender spectrum”. I didn’t ask about “reverse conversion therapy” I asked if external factors can influence a child or a young person’s declared gender identity. You seem to think it can in relation to detransitioners - that they can be “forced” by a therapist or society’s transphobia to declare that their gender identity matches their sex.

But away from an active therapist, can external factors like society’s lesbophobia or misogyny impact a teenage girl’s gender indentity? If not, why not?

Why can transphobia make a girl want to detransition but lesbophobia can’t be a reason why a girl might want to transition in the first place?

ancuruadh · 02/09/2023 04:21

NotBadConsidering · 02/09/2023 04:05

I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your post because most of it is just the silly, abuse-excusing sort of dreck you'd expect

Because you hack no answers. How dare you accuse me of “abuse-excusing”. I have more experience of dealing with childhood abuse and trauma than you will ever know. You are simultaneously disrespectful to the children who develop distress at the start of puberty and the parents of these children. If you genuinely believe that 100% of children presenting to gender clinics with gender distress at adolescence have really had lifelong hidden gender distress missed by abusive parents I don’t know what else to say. It’s so incredibly close-minded.

Society is profoundly misogynistic. This means, among other things, that there is an immense amount of social pressure for everyone to fit themselves into one of two strictly defined boxes of gender. When a conversion therapist gets to work abusing some poor kid they have all that weight of social expectation to use, to say nothing of the immense amount of the abuse that any gender-non-conforming person has to deal with. (And no, trans people are not exempt from that, don't try that shit with me.) Any hypothetical "reverse conversion therapy," or whatever you want to call it, would have to overcome that enormous amount of social pressure, and overcome the hypothetical victims own reluctance to falsify their gender, whereas conventional conversion therapy can use the one to do the other. That's why "reverse conversion therapy" isn't actually a thing. Even if we wanted to do something like that we couldn't. We simply don't have the power to make it work

This makes as about as much sense as “accessing the gender spectrum”. I didn’t ask about “reverse conversion therapy” I asked if external factors can influence a child or a young person’s declared gender identity. You seem to think it can in relation to detransitioners - that they can be “forced” by a therapist or society’s transphobia to declare that their gender identity matches their sex.

But away from an active therapist, can external factors like society’s lesbophobia or misogyny impact a teenage girl’s gender indentity? If not, why not?

Why can transphobia make a girl want to detransition but lesbophobia can’t be a reason why a girl might want to transition in the first place?

Show quote history

Because you hack no answers. How dare you accuse me of “abuse-excusing”. I have more experience of dealing with childhood abuse and trauma than you will ever know. You are simultaneously disrespectful to the children who develop distress at the start of puberty and the parents of these children. If you genuinely believe that 100% of children presenting to gender clinics with gender distress at adolescence have really had lifelong hidden gender distress missed by abusive parents I don’t know what else to say. It’s so incredibly close-minded.

Good grief. What even is the point of all this? You seem to be inventing things out of thin air.... 🙄

But away from an active therapist, can external factors like society’s lesbophobia or misogyny impact a teenage girl’s gender indentity? If not, why not?

Society hates trans people considerably more than it hates lesbians or women in general. If you think anyone would exchange less oppression for more oppression without a very good reason you really are barmy... 🙄

NotBadConsidering · 02/09/2023 04:47

ancuruadh · 02/09/2023 04:21

Because you hack no answers. How dare you accuse me of “abuse-excusing”. I have more experience of dealing with childhood abuse and trauma than you will ever know. You are simultaneously disrespectful to the children who develop distress at the start of puberty and the parents of these children. If you genuinely believe that 100% of children presenting to gender clinics with gender distress at adolescence have really had lifelong hidden gender distress missed by abusive parents I don’t know what else to say. It’s so incredibly close-minded.

Good grief. What even is the point of all this? You seem to be inventing things out of thin air.... 🙄

But away from an active therapist, can external factors like society’s lesbophobia or misogyny impact a teenage girl’s gender indentity? If not, why not?

Society hates trans people considerably more than it hates lesbians or women in general. If you think anyone would exchange less oppression for more oppression without a very good reason you really are barmy... 🙄

Show quote history

Good grief. What even is the point of all this? You seem to be inventing things out of thin air.... 🙄

What is the point of trying to pretend ROGD isn’t real? It’s pretty clear cut: there are adolescents who have no distress or dysphoria prior to puberty then they develop that distress rapidly at the onset of puberty. What is there to gain by pretending this isn’t happening?

Society hates trans people considerably more than it hates lesbians or women in general. If you think anyone would exchange less oppression for more oppression without a very good reason you really are barmy... 🙄

🤣🤣🤣 that is funny. Lesbians can’t even stand for themselves at Pride or all places, they’re that hated. Where are all the exclusively lesbian clubs gone? Can you name a famous lesbian under 30 who isn’t also gender-woo something and is just proudly a same sex attracted woman? Why does Diva magazine celebrate males? Why are so-called lesbian dating apps full of males? You demonstrate such little understanding of girls, I wonder why that is*. Being TQ is a considerably more attractive option to many teenage girls than being a same sex attracted woman who has to constantly fight to exert boundaries from males.

*not really, I know exactly why.

miri1985 · 02/09/2023 05:05

Lets say we take Scientific American at its word and ROGD doesn't exist and there is no social contagion associated with this condition. Its truely amazing, there must be so much to learn from this given that social contagion has been observed in so many other mental health conditions especially among teenagers.

It would surely warrant boat loads of studies to examine how gender dysphoria is immune from social contagion and maybe the lessons from it could help prevent social contagion that is observed in so many other mental health conditions.

It seems almost irresponsible for the scientific community not to study gender dysphoria of adolescents in depth given how many other people it could help.

NotBadConsidering · 02/09/2023 05:14

Its truely amazing, there must be so much to learn from this given that social contagion has been observed in so many other mental health conditions especially among teenagers.

It is also amazing that early onset gender dysphoria is truly unique as being the only underlying condition that causes distress to 4 or 5 year old children that they can successfully hide from their parents. What is it about gender dysphoria that elevates children to this level of mental fortitude? I can’t wait for Scientific American to publish news stories of the medical research into how this is possible.

ancuruadh · 02/09/2023 06:24

NotBadConsidering · 02/09/2023 04:47

Good grief. What even is the point of all this? You seem to be inventing things out of thin air.... 🙄

What is the point of trying to pretend ROGD isn’t real? It’s pretty clear cut: there are adolescents who have no distress or dysphoria prior to puberty then they develop that distress rapidly at the onset of puberty. What is there to gain by pretending this isn’t happening?

Society hates trans people considerably more than it hates lesbians or women in general. If you think anyone would exchange less oppression for more oppression without a very good reason you really are barmy... 🙄

🤣🤣🤣 that is funny. Lesbians can’t even stand for themselves at Pride or all places, they’re that hated. Where are all the exclusively lesbian clubs gone? Can you name a famous lesbian under 30 who isn’t also gender-woo something and is just proudly a same sex attracted woman? Why does Diva magazine celebrate males? Why are so-called lesbian dating apps full of males? You demonstrate such little understanding of girls, I wonder why that is*. Being TQ is a considerably more attractive option to many teenage girls than being a same sex attracted woman who has to constantly fight to exert boundaries from males.

*not really, I know exactly why.

Show quote history

All the vibes of a white man explaining why reverse racism is real... 🙄

ancuruadh · 02/09/2023 06:25

miri1985 · 02/09/2023 05:05

Lets say we take Scientific American at its word and ROGD doesn't exist and there is no social contagion associated with this condition. Its truely amazing, there must be so much to learn from this given that social contagion has been observed in so many other mental health conditions especially among teenagers.

It would surely warrant boat loads of studies to examine how gender dysphoria is immune from social contagion and maybe the lessons from it could help prevent social contagion that is observed in so many other mental health conditions.

It seems almost irresponsible for the scientific community not to study gender dysphoria of adolescents in depth given how many other people it could help.

Social contagion can't change the neurological structures of the brain. Good grief... 🙄

ancuruadh · 02/09/2023 06:26

NotBadConsidering · 02/09/2023 05:14

Its truely amazing, there must be so much to learn from this given that social contagion has been observed in so many other mental health conditions especially among teenagers.

It is also amazing that early onset gender dysphoria is truly unique as being the only underlying condition that causes distress to 4 or 5 year old children that they can successfully hide from their parents. What is it about gender dysphoria that elevates children to this level of mental fortitude? I can’t wait for Scientific American to publish news stories of the medical research into how this is possible.

You're off in your fantasy world again. Have fun I guess... 🙄

OldCrone · 02/09/2023 06:58

First of all, we are talking about much worse than bullying. I was routinely sexually harassed as a child and my experience was relatively mild compared to most trans people. To put it simply, any transgender person you meet is almost guaranteed to suffer PTSD from childhood abuse, that's the level of abuse we're talking about.

It's true that there does seem to be a correlation between children being sexually abused and their subsequent declaration of an opposite sex gender identity. This was noted by the Tavistock. Encouraging those children and young people to believe that physically altering their bodies to resemble the opposite sex will somehow help them is just another form of abuse.

Secondly when it comes to gay kids you are getting cause and effect reversed. Transphobic parents routinely try to force trans kids to identify as gay on the grounds that it's "not as bad." There is a pervasive delusion in society that being trans and gay are somehow the same thing and a lot of trans people, both children and adults, simply go along with it to make life easier.

I agree that the common misunderstanding that bring trans and being gay are the same is a huge problem. The 'T' should never have been attached to LGB. Most males who discover their inner womanhood in middle age are heterosexual and have absolutely nothing in common with teenage girls (many of whom are same-sex attracted) suddenly deciding that they want to be boys.

The Tavistock noted that many homophobic parents were getting referrals for their children out of fear that they might be gay - they even 'joked' that soon there would be no more gay people.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-feels-like-conversion-therapy-for-gay-children-say-clinicians-pvsckdvq2

Thirdly being autistic has nothing to do with being trans.

Apart from the fact that an unusually large proportion of children who identify as transgender are also autistic. There does seem to be a correlation. The Tavistock was also aware of this.

It feels like conversion therapy for gay children, say clinicians

Inside the clinic rooms of the Tavistock, the private heartache of a new generation of “transgender” youngsters is being laid bare. There used to be about 50 referrals a year, mainly males with a history of gender issues.Now there are thousands of youn...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-feels-like-conversion-therapy-for-gay-children-say-clinicians-pvsckdvq2

NotBadConsidering · 02/09/2023 06:58

ancuruadh · 02/09/2023 06:24

All the vibes of a white man explaining why reverse racism is real... 🙄

Show quote history

So you don’t think lesbians are discriminated against? Interesting.

NotBadConsidering · 02/09/2023 06:59

ancuruadh · 02/09/2023 06:25

Social contagion can't change the neurological structures of the brain. Good grief... 🙄

Show quote history

What neurological structures make someone trans?

This is going to be good 🍿

NotBadConsidering · 02/09/2023 07:00

ancuruadh · 02/09/2023 06:26

You're off in your fantasy world again. Have fun I guess... 🙄

Show quote history

Yes, it is fantasy to believe little children deliberately hide their gender dysphoria from their apparently abusive parents. It’s completely make believe in fact.

Igneococcus · 02/09/2023 07:21

Biology is not a belief. You are utterly demented.

That's one thing I agree with but your ramblings aren't based on biology.

Igneococcus · 02/09/2023 07:25

The success of this entire fucked up ideology rests on telling teenage kids how much the world hates them and that only the trans allies understand and love them. It's evil.

Helleofabore · 02/09/2023 07:27

NotBadConsidering · 02/09/2023 04:05

I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your post because most of it is just the silly, abuse-excusing sort of dreck you'd expect

Because you hack no answers. How dare you accuse me of “abuse-excusing”. I have more experience of dealing with childhood abuse and trauma than you will ever know. You are simultaneously disrespectful to the children who develop distress at the start of puberty and the parents of these children. If you genuinely believe that 100% of children presenting to gender clinics with gender distress at adolescence have really had lifelong hidden gender distress missed by abusive parents I don’t know what else to say. It’s so incredibly close-minded.

Society is profoundly misogynistic. This means, among other things, that there is an immense amount of social pressure for everyone to fit themselves into one of two strictly defined boxes of gender. When a conversion therapist gets to work abusing some poor kid they have all that weight of social expectation to use, to say nothing of the immense amount of the abuse that any gender-non-conforming person has to deal with. (And no, trans people are not exempt from that, don't try that shit with me.) Any hypothetical "reverse conversion therapy," or whatever you want to call it, would have to overcome that enormous amount of social pressure, and overcome the hypothetical victims own reluctance to falsify their gender, whereas conventional conversion therapy can use the one to do the other. That's why "reverse conversion therapy" isn't actually a thing. Even if we wanted to do something like that we couldn't. We simply don't have the power to make it work

This makes as about as much sense as “accessing the gender spectrum”. I didn’t ask about “reverse conversion therapy” I asked if external factors can influence a child or a young person’s declared gender identity. You seem to think it can in relation to detransitioners - that they can be “forced” by a therapist or society’s transphobia to declare that their gender identity matches their sex.

But away from an active therapist, can external factors like society’s lesbophobia or misogyny impact a teenage girl’s gender indentity? If not, why not?

Why can transphobia make a girl want to detransition but lesbophobia can’t be a reason why a girl might want to transition in the first place?

Show quote history

Notbad

This poster is abusing people who disagree with them on multiple threads now.

What has been very clear though is that absolutely no links to any evidence has been posted. Instead apparently we are are ‘numpties’ and dehumanised. Amongst other tactics being used.

Helleofabore · 02/09/2023 07:29

NotBadConsidering · 02/09/2023 06:59

What neurological structures make someone trans?

This is going to be good 🍿

Show quote history

There is an explanation about body inventory etc on another thread. Just in case you don’t get a full reply here.

It is most enlightening.

It is almost as good as the ‘constellation of points’ theory we heard earlier this year.

OldCrone · 02/09/2023 07:31

NotBadConsidering · 02/09/2023 06:59

What neurological structures make someone trans?

This is going to be good 🍿

Show quote history

Some research into body integrity identity disorder (BIID), a condition in which the sufferer has an intense desire or need to have one or more limbs amputated, has indicated that this is may be a neurological rather than a psychological disorder. Comparisons have often been made between this disorder and gender dysphoria in some people who want to make their bodies resemble that of the opposite sex.

But despite these similarities, whilst it is acceptable to view someone who wants to be an amputee as suffering from a disorder, we are expected to accept that someone who wants to make their body resemble the opposite sex is just someone with a 'gender identity', not a disorder.

Obviously a genuine neurological condition isn't subject to social contagion, but this isn't what is going on with teenage girls or anyone who is just claiming to have a gender identity.

Original poster
BonfireLady · 02/09/2023 07:47

ancuruadh · 02/09/2023 00:52

"From the follow-on comments it sounds like you're referring to bullying (by peers) and/or parents rejecting their children. Typically speaking, I should imagine bullying by peers for anything that is considered "different" is going to make children hide or reduce those differences. Re parents, I'd imagine most would do the opposite and try and give children the confidence to embrace their differences. Two big areas where children would find challenges are most likely a) playing with people or toys that are typically considered "normal" for the opposite sex. This would mostly impact boys being called gay etc - sadly this still happens, including at primary school. For girls, the biggest way to be different is to not be in the cool clique. Everything seems to point to either someone who would grow up to be gay (there's definitely a noticeable overlap with a preference for things/people that are stereotypically "normally" for the opposite sex) or autistic (processing things differently, therefore behaving differently). Sadly some effeminate boys will be abused at home by intolerant parents. But mostly the abuse is likely to be bullying, simply for being different."

No, no, no and no. First of all, we are talking about much worse than bullying. I was routinely sexually harassed as a child and my experience was relatively mild compared to most trans people. To put it simply, any transgender person you meet is almost guaranteed to suffer PTSD from childhood abuse, that's the level of abuse we're talking about.

Secondly when it comes to gay kids you are getting cause and effect reversed. Transphobic parents routinely try to force trans kids to identify as gay on the grounds that it's "not as bad." There is a pervasive delusion in society that being trans and gay are somehow the same thing and a lot of trans people, both children and adults, simply go along with it to make life easier.

Thirdly being autistic has nothing to do with being trans.

You seem to think you can throw in a subtle "trans people don't actually exist, trololololo" and I won't notice. Well guess what? I did notice. Be more respectful next time.

"I don't have anything to say in response to this, similar to how I wouldn't be able to comment on any specifics about Christian beliefs when it gets in to the faith end of things e.g. the difference between following the 10 commandments because it's a kind way to be (I agree) and God being the father of Jesus (as an atheist, I'm not going to have anything to add to that - other than "I understand that you believe that, but I don't"). I don't have a belief in gender identity so for me, it's very much the same."

Biology is not a belief. You are utterly demented.

"As for detransitioners, they are simply victims of conversion therapy and other transphobic abuse...
Or could they be people who did have a belief in gender identity (and saw transition as right for them) but no longer do (and are now processing their feelings about everything that they have been through)?"

Being trans is not a belief, it is a biological fact. You cannot change the neurological structure of you brain by declaring it a belief, that's absurd. Detransitioners are victims of grooming and abuse, nothing else.

I am not going to reply to the rest of what you posted because it's fairly anodyne and because I'm quite thoroughly sick of you disrespectful attitude. You are clearly a delusional individual who thinks they can impose their delusions onto the world at large by manipulation and bullying. I suggest you learn some biology and get a better attitude if you want to have anything to say that any reasonable person will want to hear.

Show quote history

In the spirit that debate is better than no debate, I'm happy to continue the conversation. But if I get called delusional, demented or similar again (whilst simultaneously being told that I'm being disrespectful), this will be my final direct reply to you. If too many personal insults are thrown, posts often get deleted. Personally, I think it's better if the posts stay up where there is substance being discussed, but just like me, I'd imagine MNHQ has a tipping point. If there is more personal mud-slinging than actual discussion, what's the point in the post staying up?

@NotBadConsidering has said lots of great stuff already.

To add to that, there is a fundamental issue at play here: belief.

Being trans is not a belief, it is a biological fact.

I could easily counter that with "Sex being immutable is not a belief, it's a biological fact".

But if we both stay entrenched in those positions, rather than acknowledging that we each have a different belief (yes, I'm happy to state that it's my belief that sex is immutable and that I believe it because it's my conclusion from the evidence that I've seen) then we may as well be a Christian and an atheist arguing about the paternity of Jesus.

To borrow @NotBadConsidering 's words and add in one of my own (square brackets):
What is the point of trying to pretend ROGD isn’t real? It’s pretty clear cut: there are adolescents who have no [declared] distress or dysphoria prior to puberty then they develop that distress rapidly at the onset of puberty. What is there to gain by pretending this isn’t happening?

Irrespective of a difference of opinion in what has led to it, what's the point in denying the reality that there has been a huge uptick in adolescent girls presenting in gender clinics? Whether it was "hidden" or not before is largely irrelevant to the reality that it is happening. Unpicking why it is happening is paramount - and unpicking why is going to come down to how each of us interprets the evidence through the lens of our gender identity or sex immutability belief.

To pick up on a few specifics:

To put it simply, any transgender person you meet is almost guaranteed to suffer PTSD from childhood abuse, that's the level of abuse we're talking about.

I'm sorry to hear that you suffered from sexual abuse. There is consensus that many (not "almost always guaranteed" though) people who identify as transgender have suffered from this too. However, there is not consensus on causality when it comes to why someone who has been abused would also identify as trans. There are many published theories which don't agree with each other on the whether the chicken or egg came first. In general, people who believe in gender identity may tend towards what you're suggesting, whereas people who believe that sex is immutable may tend towards the idea that identifying as transgender is a trauma response - both sexual abuse and bullying can result in a trauma response.

The chicken and egg issue (being related to which belief someone has) will also apply to which way round someone may view whether a person is being "converted" from being gay to trans or trans to gay. It's notable that the Tavistock whistleblowers were worried that they were "transing away the gay". To be a clinician in such a clinic, presumably you'd have to believe in gender identity (otherwise you're helping someone to change their body to look like the opposite sex for no good reason), so if they are concerned about this, that warrants attention.

Thirdly being autistic has nothing to do with being trans.

The figures from the UK's GIDS clinic disagree with that. They were berated in court for their lack of data in general, but they did at least have data on this. Anywhere between 35-48% of children who presented to GIDS for gender dysphoria were autistic:
https://statsforgender.org/nearly-half-of-children-with-gender-dysphoria-scored-in-the-mild-moderate-or-severe-range-of-risk-factors-for-autism-spectrum-disorders/

These two links have more generic context around comorbidities, as well as providing stats and commentary on how many children are gay:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/current-evidence/

https://bjgplife.com/time-to-think-the-inside-story-of-the-collapse-of-the-tavistocks-gender-service-for-children-by-hannah-barnes/

And finally, I have never said or intimidated that transgender people don't exist. They do. Transgender people are people who believe in gender identity, have a distress or disconnect related to their gender (i.e. the sex that they feel they are) and their sex (that they believe was assigned at birth) and transition so that their body is "in alignment" with their feelings. All of my comments have been about addressing why ROGD can't be declared "not a thing", not about whether trans people exist. If it any of it was received that way and caused offense, I apologise. However, I won't apologise for holding a belief that sex is immutable.

Current Evidence - Transgender Trend

Evidence for the social and medical transition of children is sparse. This page documents recent studies and papers on the subject.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/current-evidence

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 02/09/2023 08:25

Well done BonfireLady and everyone else for engaging so extensively with a poster who (yet again) disguises their lack of evidence and insight into children (especially teenage girls) by throwing around so many misogynistic insults.
It would be funny if the impact on children of toxic adults using them to further their own ideological cause wasn't so terrible.

ancuruadh · 02/09/2023 08:54

BonfireLady · 02/09/2023 07:47

In the spirit that debate is better than no debate, I'm happy to continue the conversation. But if I get called delusional, demented or similar again (whilst simultaneously being told that I'm being disrespectful), this will be my final direct reply to you. If too many personal insults are thrown, posts often get deleted. Personally, I think it's better if the posts stay up where there is substance being discussed, but just like me, I'd imagine MNHQ has a tipping point. If there is more personal mud-slinging than actual discussion, what's the point in the post staying up?

@NotBadConsidering has said lots of great stuff already.

To add to that, there is a fundamental issue at play here: belief.

Being trans is not a belief, it is a biological fact.

I could easily counter that with "Sex being immutable is not a belief, it's a biological fact".

But if we both stay entrenched in those positions, rather than acknowledging that we each have a different belief (yes, I'm happy to state that it's my belief that sex is immutable and that I believe it because it's my conclusion from the evidence that I've seen) then we may as well be a Christian and an atheist arguing about the paternity of Jesus.

To borrow @NotBadConsidering 's words and add in one of my own (square brackets):
What is the point of trying to pretend ROGD isn’t real? It’s pretty clear cut: there are adolescents who have no [declared] distress or dysphoria prior to puberty then they develop that distress rapidly at the onset of puberty. What is there to gain by pretending this isn’t happening?

Irrespective of a difference of opinion in what has led to it, what's the point in denying the reality that there has been a huge uptick in adolescent girls presenting in gender clinics? Whether it was "hidden" or not before is largely irrelevant to the reality that it is happening. Unpicking why it is happening is paramount - and unpicking why is going to come down to how each of us interprets the evidence through the lens of our gender identity or sex immutability belief.

To pick up on a few specifics:

To put it simply, any transgender person you meet is almost guaranteed to suffer PTSD from childhood abuse, that's the level of abuse we're talking about.

I'm sorry to hear that you suffered from sexual abuse. There is consensus that many (not "almost always guaranteed" though) people who identify as transgender have suffered from this too. However, there is not consensus on causality when it comes to why someone who has been abused would also identify as trans. There are many published theories which don't agree with each other on the whether the chicken or egg came first. In general, people who believe in gender identity may tend towards what you're suggesting, whereas people who believe that sex is immutable may tend towards the idea that identifying as transgender is a trauma response - both sexual abuse and bullying can result in a trauma response.

The chicken and egg issue (being related to which belief someone has) will also apply to which way round someone may view whether a person is being "converted" from being gay to trans or trans to gay. It's notable that the Tavistock whistleblowers were worried that they were "transing away the gay". To be a clinician in such a clinic, presumably you'd have to believe in gender identity (otherwise you're helping someone to change their body to look like the opposite sex for no good reason), so if they are concerned about this, that warrants attention.

Thirdly being autistic has nothing to do with being trans.

The figures from the UK's GIDS clinic disagree with that. They were berated in court for their lack of data in general, but they did at least have data on this. Anywhere between 35-48% of children who presented to GIDS for gender dysphoria were autistic:
https://statsforgender.org/nearly-half-of-children-with-gender-dysphoria-scored-in-the-mild-moderate-or-severe-range-of-risk-factors-for-autism-spectrum-disorders/

These two links have more generic context around comorbidities, as well as providing stats and commentary on how many children are gay:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/current-evidence/

https://bjgplife.com/time-to-think-the-inside-story-of-the-collapse-of-the-tavistocks-gender-service-for-children-by-hannah-barnes/

And finally, I have never said or intimidated that transgender people don't exist. They do. Transgender people are people who believe in gender identity, have a distress or disconnect related to their gender (i.e. the sex that they feel they are) and their sex (that they believe was assigned at birth) and transition so that their body is "in alignment" with their feelings. All of my comments have been about addressing why ROGD can't be declared "not a thing", not about whether trans people exist. If it any of it was received that way and caused offense, I apologise. However, I won't apologise for holding a belief that sex is immutable.

Show quote history

"I will debate you if you allow me to dehumanise you."

No. No you are not allowed to dehumanise me. Kindly stop.

Original poster
BonfireLady · 02/09/2023 08:59

ancuruadh · 02/09/2023 08:54

"I will debate you if you allow me to dehumanise you."

No. No you are not allowed to dehumanise me. Kindly stop.

Show quote history

I can see why it would be received that way and I can only reiterate that my intention is the very opposite.

Gender dysphoria is a real distress. Anyone who experiences it deserves the best evidence-based care. Whether they are adolescent girls with ROGD or otherwise.

OP posts:
NotBadConsidering · 02/09/2023 10:37

BonfireLady · 02/09/2023 08:59

I can see why it would be received that way and I can only reiterate that my intention is the very opposite.

Gender dysphoria is a real distress. Anyone who experiences it deserves the best evidence-based care. Whether they are adolescent girls with ROGD or otherwise.

Show quote history

You haven’t dehumanised anyone @BonfireLady and there is no way anything you’ve said can be interpreted that way either. Don’t get drawn into the idea that you have anything to apologise for.

Boomboom22 · 02/09/2023 10:50

These visitors are very cruel. To call mothers who are trying to protect their kids from making themselves disabled for life through medication they should never have access to and someone comes projecting about dehumanising and fantasist!
There is absolutely no diagnostic brain scan for trans. If there was there would be no detrans as no Dr would ever operate without the diagnosis.
Also it makes no sense to not be a medical issue but then require destroying parts of the healthy body. Also stonewall say no dysphoria is required to be trans at all so technically that poster is vv transphobic basically saying all trans people are damaged and abused.

Boomboom22 · 02/09/2023 10:51

BTW the very weak brain scan evidence is from after taking cross sex hormones not before. So pretty useless really.