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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Hey! We're just "non-trans women" now"!

222 replies

HootyMcBooby76 · 29/08/2023 16:24

So I've seen a quite a few numbers of social media videos now, where the increasing trend in the ideology is to describe women (the original type) as "non-trans women".

So, not women.
Not even "biological women".
Not even the revolting "cis" women.

We are now "non-trans women".

Talk about linguistic gymnastics!

SO...trans women are actually women, but WE are "non-trans" women.

Ok, gotcha.

Women are now defined by what they are NOT (ie, men).

My two girls are at an age where they are applying for their first jobs for a bit of extra cash while they study. The remarkable array of choices now that exist for the old "sex" category (instead of the traditional and REALISTIC two) are astounding. I think I counted seven on one form.

I'm not sure how I feel about my new status as a "non-trans|" woman?
Oh actually I do.
Fuck right off.

OP posts:
OhHolyMoly · 29/08/2023 19:28

I get that @Insommmmnia but I’m taking about the addition or not of sugar, not specifically the milk-ness of the milk.

But you are also completely right!!

So we should we have:

  1. Sweetened non-milk
  2. Non-milk
  3. Unsweetened non-milk

And how do we know what type of non-milk the non-milk is?

OhHolyMoly · 29/08/2023 19:30

… if only we had some sort of standard nomenclature for his sort of thing. Oh wait…

RavingStone · 29/08/2023 19:33

LoobiJee · 29/08/2023 18:23

So what you are saying is that there are:

  • male people who identify as transwomen
  • male people who do not identify as transwomen.

And there’s a need for a term to refer to individuals who do not identify as transwomen. So the term for these male people who do not identify as transwomen is non-transwomen. So…

Owen Jones is a Non-Transwoman
Billy Bragg is a Non-Transwoman
Nish Kumar is a Non-Transwoman
Jeremy Vine is a Non-Transwoman.
Joe Lycett is a Non-Transwoman.

Got it. I can see the argument for that. And as such staunch allies, they’ll be wholly in favour of their new definition I’m sure.

Show quote history

I'm on board with this. It makes perfect sense. About time those chaps stepped up their trans allyship too.

WestwardHo1 · 29/08/2023 19:35

DadJoke · 29/08/2023 16:54

In the context of transgender rights, we need language to refer to people who are not transgender. Most GC people strenuously object to cisgender. The only other term which works in this specific context is non-transgender, or non-trans. This is a perfectly reasonable effort to accomodate your ideology.

You don't even have to acknowledge that trans women are women to acknowledge they are transgender, and you most like are not. So, saying that you are a non-transgender woman, doesn't even conceed that transgender woman are in fact women, merely transgender people.

As you clearly object, what other adjective would you like to use to refer to people who are not transgender?

Ha ha ha!

Do you believe your own bullshit?

We have a word already. Just "women" will do, thanks.

RavingStone · 29/08/2023 19:38

Shit I just described the non-transwoman Owen Jones as a "chap". Off to educate myself and repent.

Actually what is the informal version of non-transwoman? Non-translass perhaps?

SirVixofVixHall · 29/08/2023 19:43

DadJoke · 29/08/2023 16:54

In the context of transgender rights, we need language to refer to people who are not transgender. Most GC people strenuously object to cisgender. The only other term which works in this specific context is non-transgender, or non-trans. This is a perfectly reasonable effort to accomodate your ideology.

You don't even have to acknowledge that trans women are women to acknowledge they are transgender, and you most like are not. So, saying that you are a non-transgender woman, doesn't even conceed that transgender woman are in fact women, merely transgender people.

As you clearly object, what other adjective would you like to use to refer to people who are not transgender?

Women and girls, men and boys has worked perfectly well for millennia.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 29/08/2023 19:43

HootyMcBooby76 · 29/08/2023 17:03

Men or women.
Simple.

Show quote history

This every time:
Women & trans
Men and trans.

Simple and everyone in the world understands the distinction.

LondonJax · 29/08/2023 19:49

DadJoke · 29/08/2023 16:54

In the context of transgender rights, we need language to refer to people who are not transgender. Most GC people strenuously object to cisgender. The only other term which works in this specific context is non-transgender, or non-trans. This is a perfectly reasonable effort to accomodate your ideology.

You don't even have to acknowledge that trans women are women to acknowledge they are transgender, and you most like are not. So, saying that you are a non-transgender woman, doesn't even conceed that transgender woman are in fact women, merely transgender people.

As you clearly object, what other adjective would you like to use to refer to people who are not transgender?

Actually @DadJoke that should be the other way round. Women have been called women for all time. If transwomen (or transmen) are so proud to be trans why not use that label? Transwoman. That explains quite clearly that I am not a transwoman as I use the label assigned to me at birth - female/girl/woman. Easy. I don't need a label of CIS or nan-trans as I have a label - woman.

Original poster
HootyMcBooby76 · 29/08/2023 19:50

I suspect we have been the victims of a drive-by finger-wagging.

Will the elusive DadJoke return to enthral us with their insightful and wee reasoned responses?

OP posts:
Original poster
HootyMcBooby76 · 29/08/2023 19:51

well reasoned

OP posts:
BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 29/08/2023 19:55

I thought wee reasoned was more appropriate 😁

Lzzyisgod · 29/08/2023 19:59

I lurk and read this board in an effort to educate myself but frequently I find myself quoting Paul Wellar in my head ......

"And the more I see, the more I know
The more I know, the less I understand
I'm the changingman

As many previous posters have said Clear as Mud.

Trianglesandcircles1 · 29/08/2023 19:59

If I put on a white coat and drape a stethoscope round my shoulders, can I refer to myself as a 'trans doctor'? After all, it is just another type of dressing-up and pretending to be something other than I am.

In which case the 'real' doctors (the qualified ones) can be non-trans doctors?

And if I dress up as a nun, then I become a trans nun, and all other women and transwomen (except actual nuns) can become non-trans nuns.
So the transwomen will be non-trans transwomen nuns, unless of course they are actual nuns, in which case they are just transwomen nuns, or transnuns for short - not to be confused with trans nuns, which is non-trans women non-nuns dressed as nuns.

Am I making myself clear?
Do we all agree that this is a very helpful and progressive improvement to the language?

DadJoke · 29/08/2023 20:02

Acornsoup · 29/08/2023 16:57

Hang on a minute but I specifically object to non-trans and non-transgender to describe myself. We have nothing left do we 😞

What would you prefer as an adjective in the context of a discussion involving transgender people and people who are not transgender?

Teentaxidriver · 29/08/2023 20:04

DadJoke - I am a woman. It is really easy. I don’t have an ideology, by the way, just plain old material reality.

Teentaxidriver · 29/08/2023 20:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BathingBeauty · 29/08/2023 20:12

I’m happy how quickly how ridiculous this is all getting and how it changes constantly. It means it won’t take full control.
This includes all the young people who are bored of they/them and have moved onto neo-pronouns that they can pick out of a hat whenever they feel like changing. No one is going to keep up or care about this.
Changeability shows how meaningless it is.

DadJoke · 29/08/2023 20:14

LondonJax · 29/08/2023 19:49

Actually @DadJoke that should be the other way round. Women have been called women for all time. If transwomen (or transmen) are so proud to be trans why not use that label? Transwoman. That explains quite clearly that I am not a transwoman as I use the label assigned to me at birth - female/girl/woman. Easy. I don't need a label of CIS or nan-trans as I have a label - woman.

Show quote history

This is not the issue under discussion. OP objects to the use of non-transgender to refer to a person who is not transgender. It’s how English works.

Transgender is an adjective. A transgender person is a person who is transgender. It’s really not that complicated and I would hope non-controversial.

I mean you can say people who are transgender and people who aren’t transgender, but it’s a bit of a mouthful.

What adjective would you use for a person who is not transgender?

Gagagardener · 29/08/2023 20:15

I agree with all those defending using the word 'woman', in use in English for at least a thousand years as a concise way of saying 'adult female human'. If @DadJoke really wants an adjective, let's try 'proper' - or as already suggested 'actual'.
So there'll be a few men who want to call themselves transwomen and and a lot of proper, actual women who won't just budge up.

BeckyWithTheGoodHair010101 · 29/08/2023 20:22

@DadJoke

What would you prefer as an adjective in the context of a discussion involving transgender people and people who are not transgender?*
*
How about "Woman" to describe a woman and "Transwoman" to describe a transwoman?

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 29/08/2023 20:23

Non-transwoman doesn't necessary mean a woman (the cunty kind) though.
My DSs are also Non-transwomen. So if, for eg, a public campaign went out saying that "all non-transwomen need to book a blood test to check for x" how would we know if it meant female Non-transwomen or male Non-transwomen?

There are 2 "identities" that I have that do not need a qualifier in front of them. (Identities is the wrong word, but I can't think of a better one)
One of these is Mum. I'm my DCs mum. If you want to differentiate between their step-mum and my then you can do so by using the qualifier "step" for her. No need to call me their birth/bio mum.

The other is woman. I'm a woman. A transwoman is a transwoman.

Trianglesandcircles1 · 29/08/2023 20:23

DadJoke · 29/08/2023 20:14

This is not the issue under discussion. OP objects to the use of non-transgender to refer to a person who is not transgender. It’s how English works.

Transgender is an adjective. A transgender person is a person who is transgender. It’s really not that complicated and I would hope non-controversial.

I mean you can say people who are transgender and people who aren’t transgender, but it’s a bit of a mouthful.

What adjective would you use for a person who is not transgender?

Show quote history

I suggest that no adjective is needed in this hypothetical and very specific circumstance. You can just say 'people who are not transgender'.
Clear and to the point.

Flakey99 · 29/08/2023 20:29

As you clearly object, what other adjective would you like to use to refer to people who are not transgender?
^
How about the following options;

Women ☑️^

Men. ❎

Trans. ❎

Yes, it's that easy. 👍

DadJoke · 29/08/2023 20:30

Teentaxidriver · 29/08/2023 20:04

DadJoke - I am a woman. It is really easy. I don’t have an ideology, by the way, just plain old material reality.

Who said you weren’t a woman? What does any of this to do with the fact that you aren’t transgender?