Page 3 | Hey! We're just "non-trans women" now"!

HootyMcBooby76 · 2023-08-29T15:24:22+00:00

So I've seen a quite a few numbers of social media videos now, where the increasing trend in the ideology is to describe women (the original type) as "non-trans women". So, not women. Not even "biological women". Not even the revolting "cis" women. We are now "non-trans women". Talk about linguistic gymnastics! SO...trans women are actually women, but WE are "non-trans" women. Ok, gotcha. Women are now defined by what they are NOT (ie, men). My two girls are at an age where they are applying for their first jobs for a bit of extra cash while they study. The remarkable array of choices now that exist for the old "sex" category (instead of the traditional and REALISTIC two) are astounding. I think I counted seven on one form. I'm not sure how I feel about my new status as a "non-trans|" woman? Oh actually I do. Fuck right off.

Helleofabore · 29/08/2023 17:50

DadJoke · 29/08/2023 16:54

In the context of transgender rights, we need language to refer to people who are not transgender. Most GC people strenuously object to cisgender. The only other term which works in this specific context is non-transgender, or non-trans. This is a perfectly reasonable effort to accomodate your ideology.

You don't even have to acknowledge that trans women are women to acknowledge they are transgender, and you most like are not. So, saying that you are a non-transgender woman, doesn't even conceed that transgender woman are in fact women, merely transgender people.

As you clearly object, what other adjective would you like to use to refer to people who are not transgender?

So, you are happy then for women to choose your label describing you?

How about we simply stick to ejaculator? You show yourself again to be very happy to tell women what they should and shouldn't accept. It really does show up very clearly on a feminism thread as misogynistic thinking.

Barney60 · 29/08/2023 17:54

vHow about just referring to people by their correct biological sex.

How about not attempting to impose newspeak by diktat.

It won't work.How about just referring to people by their correct biological sex.

How about not attempting to impose newspeak by diktat.

It won't work.

Agree with this, its all bloody stupid nonsense, you are what you were born, you can have operations or call yourself what you want but read your birth certificate, thats it, im female, no more or less.

Alopeciabop · 29/08/2023 17:57

DadJoke · 29/08/2023 16:54

In the context of transgender rights, we need language to refer to people who are not transgender. Most GC people strenuously object to cisgender. The only other term which works in this specific context is non-transgender, or non-trans. This is a perfectly reasonable effort to accomodate your ideology.

You don't even have to acknowledge that trans women are women to acknowledge they are transgender, and you most like are not. So, saying that you are a non-transgender woman, doesn't even conceed that transgender woman are in fact women, merely transgender people.

As you clearly object, what other adjective would you like to use to refer to people who are not transgender?

So according to you the opposite of:

trans = non-trans

so the opposite of:

woman = transwoman

is this correct??

Please, I have TRIED to figure this out logically but I need these questions answered. I’d love to have my mind changed….so will you can answer these two questions:

Why in any other context would be appropriation to dress up and “act” and demand to be someone other than yourself, but women it’s fine? (also demanding they change and add their identities to suit you because your language desires trump theirs?)
if you just removed gender stereotypes there would be no issue no? Because what is transism based on other than steryotypes?

no one answers these questions so bonus question to you is why does no one answer these two questions?

doctorbird · 29/08/2023 18:01

DadJoke · 29/08/2023 16:54

In the context of transgender rights, we need language to refer to people who are not transgender. Most GC people strenuously object to cisgender. The only other term which works in this specific context is non-transgender, or non-trans. This is a perfectly reasonable effort to accomodate your ideology.

You don't even have to acknowledge that trans women are women to acknowledge they are transgender, and you most like are not. So, saying that you are a non-transgender woman, doesn't even conceed that transgender woman are in fact women, merely transgender people.

As you clearly object, what other adjective would you like to use to refer to people who are not transgender?

Being a woman is not an ideology. It is a biological reality that the very existence of trans women is predicated upon. Eroding the meaning of the word woman would render the term "trans woman" meaningless as well since it relies on the universally accepted definition of what a woman is. It is fascinating that within the trans ideology a word is still required to identify people who do not identify as trans. It's almost as though there is a difference that is sometimes important to acknowledge... 🤨

SammyScrounge · 29/08/2023 18:02

DadJoke · 29/08/2023 16:54

In the context of transgender rights, we need language to refer to people who are not transgender. Most GC people strenuously object to cisgender. The only other term which works in this specific context is non-transgender, or non-trans. This is a perfectly reasonable effort to accomodate your ideology.

You don't even have to acknowledge that trans women are women to acknowledge they are transgender, and you most like are not. So, saying that you are a non-transgender woman, doesn't even conceed that transgender woman are in fact women, merely transgender people.

As you clearly object, what other adjective would you like to use to refer to people who are not transgender?

Real women's?

MrsMarzetti · 29/08/2023 18:11

DadJoke · 29/08/2023 16:54

In the context of transgender rights, we need language to refer to people who are not transgender. Most GC people strenuously object to cisgender. The only other term which works in this specific context is non-transgender, or non-trans. This is a perfectly reasonable effort to accomodate your ideology.

You don't even have to acknowledge that trans women are women to acknowledge they are transgender, and you most like are not. So, saying that you are a non-transgender woman, doesn't even conceed that transgender woman are in fact women, merely transgender people.

As you clearly object, what other adjective would you like to use to refer to people who are not transgender?

They are not, they are blokes. It really is that simple.

LoobiJee · 29/08/2023 18:23

DadJoke · 29/08/2023 16:54

In the context of transgender rights, we need language to refer to people who are not transgender. Most GC people strenuously object to cisgender. The only other term which works in this specific context is non-transgender, or non-trans. This is a perfectly reasonable effort to accomodate your ideology.

You don't even have to acknowledge that trans women are women to acknowledge they are transgender, and you most like are not. So, saying that you are a non-transgender woman, doesn't even conceed that transgender woman are in fact women, merely transgender people.

As you clearly object, what other adjective would you like to use to refer to people who are not transgender?

So what you are saying is that there are:

male people who identify as transwomen

male people who do not identify as transwomen.

And there’s a need for a term to refer to individuals who do not identify as transwomen. So the term for these male people who do not identify as transwomen is non-transwomen. So…

Owen Jones is a Non-Transwoman
Billy Bragg is a Non-Transwoman
Nish Kumar is a Non-Transwoman
Jeremy Vine is a Non-Transwoman.
Joe Lycett is a Non-Transwoman.

Got it. I can see the argument for that. And as such staunch allies, they’ll be wholly in favour of their new definition I’m sure.

BettyFilous · 29/08/2023 18:23

HarrietJet · 29/08/2023 16:58

In the context of transgender rights, we need language to refer to people who are not transgender
No, dear. We really do not.

Not being transgender is the default. HTH.

I don’t understand DadJoke’s point either. Surely if you are advocating for the rights of a group, you need to refer to the defining characteristic of your group so other people will understand your cause. Why are trans people seemingly so ashamed of their transness? If it’s important, why are you trying to disappear your group into another group?

ErrolTheDragon · 29/08/2023 18:25

DadJoke is the one with the 'ideology', with his belief that 'transgender woman are in fact women'.

In fact, they're not.
Gender is an artificial construct, sex is real and immutable.

It's not the fault of women that the genderists have tried to redefine simple and necessary words like "woman" (adult human female). A trans woman is, in fact, a 'transman'.

ChiefWiggumsBoy · 29/08/2023 18:32

DadJoke · 29/08/2023 16:54

In the context of transgender rights, we need language to refer to people who are not transgender. Most GC people strenuously object to cisgender. The only other term which works in this specific context is non-transgender, or non-trans. This is a perfectly reasonable effort to accomodate your ideology.

You don't even have to acknowledge that trans women are women to acknowledge they are transgender, and you most like are not. So, saying that you are a non-transgender woman, doesn't even conceed that transgender woman are in fact women, merely transgender people.

As you clearly object, what other adjective would you like to use to refer to people who are not transgender?

Hi @DadJoke

So by your logic, when describing parents, we might say dad or non-dad. Because there isn't a perfectly adequate word like mum we could use? I mean I'm sure you'd be ok being called nonmumjoke because it doesn't actually have any bearing on you as a male at all, does it?

viques · 29/08/2023 18:37

doctorbird · 29/08/2023 18:01

Being a woman is not an ideology. It is a biological reality that the very existence of trans women is predicated upon. Eroding the meaning of the word woman would render the term "trans woman" meaningless as well since it relies on the universally accepted definition of what a woman is. It is fascinating that within the trans ideology a word is still required to identify people who do not identify as trans. It's almost as though there is a difference that is sometimes important to acknowledge... 🤨

Show quote history

I am having a bit of deja vu to JKRs famous tweet when she tried to remember that elusive word that describes an adult human female in five letters……

FlirtsWithRhinos · 29/08/2023 18:42

It's not the fault of women that the genderists have tried to redefine simple and necessary words like "woman" (adult human female). A trans woman is, in fact, a 'transman'.

👏👏👏

Exactly. They want to take away our ability to express our lived reality by redefing words in such a way as to make it impossible. This must be called out every time they try and slip it through.

Although @DadJoke So, saying that you are a non-transgender woman, doesn't even conceed that transgender woman are in fact women, merely transgender people. As someone who doesn't believe in gender ideology but recognises some people do have transgender identities, I'm fine with saying that I'm a non transgender woman, trans women are transgender men, and trans men are transgender women. Is that what you mean?

Feelinggoodtuesday · 29/08/2023 18:44

HarrietJet · 29/08/2023 16:58

In the context of transgender rights, we need language to refer to people who are not transgender
No, dear. We really do not.

Not being transgender is the default. HTH.

👌

SuperNewMe · 29/08/2023 18:45

Dramatico · 29/08/2023 16:29

Yep. And our vaginas are now to be called 'front holes'. The word vagina should only be used for transwomen, apparently.

Is that actually the case? That we all have to call it that now?
Or is it that they may use that in a health care setting for those who want to refer to it as that, such as a trans man (ie, born female?)
So everyone feels included and happy when going for smears or whatever?
Cos I couldn't give a toss whatever someone refers to theirs as, each to their own.

forgotmyusername1 · 29/08/2023 18:50

DadJoke · 29/08/2023 16:54

In the context of transgender rights, we need language to refer to people who are not transgender. Most GC people strenuously object to cisgender. The only other term which works in this specific context is non-transgender, or non-trans. This is a perfectly reasonable effort to accomodate your ideology.

You don't even have to acknowledge that trans women are women to acknowledge they are transgender, and you most like are not. So, saying that you are a non-transgender woman, doesn't even conceed that transgender woman are in fact women, merely transgender people.

As you clearly object, what other adjective would you like to use to refer to people who are not transgender?

Women and non women?

Inamuddle36 · 29/08/2023 18:52

Hmmm I assume you do consider lesbians to be women? ie “real women”, not non-trans-women?

through it all becomes complicated as it seems some (perhaps many) transwomen are attracted to women and/or other transwomen. I would consider them neither lesbians nor women, nor heterosexual men — are they “trans lesbians”?
my brain is boggling at the possible permutations.
but I do firmly believe women do not need any modifiers, nor do men. Anyone who wishes to modify their bodies with hormones or surgery can find appropriate nouns or adjectives to define themselves, as long as they do not call themselves “women” or “men”.

Inamuddle36 · 29/08/2023 18:56

As an aside, Injust heard a news report about rising incidents of alcohol-related deaths in Scotland. The rise is entirely attributable to women. The experts discussed reasons for the increase, all with reference to “women” and “women’s health” — and I found myself wondering what is their definition of “women”. Presumably, they all meant “women” as in people born female who have grown into adults. If not, the term “women’s health”
is meaningless as there can only be “women’s health” if it encompasses something different from “men’s health”.
There could and should also be transwomen’s health and trans men’s health as I assume they have specific challenges different from women and men….

YouJustDoYou · 29/08/2023 19:00

Vaginas are "BONUS HOLES". We are worth nothing.

Gowlett · 29/08/2023 19:03

What does cis actually mean? Just asking!

WickedSerious · 29/08/2023 19:15

HarrietJet · 29/08/2023 16:59

As you clearly object, what other adjective would you like to use to refer to people who are not transgender?
Men and women will do nicely. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

This works for me.

Faffertea · 29/08/2023 19:18

It only becomes necessary to call women “non trans women” if you use trans as an adjective and accept that men who identify as women are the same as adult human females.

I don’t subscribe to that belief system so I don’t accept it is necessary.

The only time I can see it could possibly useful is if we’re talking about women who identify as transgender but as firstly that’s not what “trans women” is used for, secondly that’s not how women who identify as men want to be known and thirdly you could just as easily say “women who identify as transgender” then really it is thoroughly redundant.

Of course, in reality this is yet more attempt to manipulate language to say some males are better at womanning than actual women so we should put up and shut up and stop objecting to it.

Women, know your place.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 29/08/2023 19:18

@DadJoke

In the context of transgender rights, we need language to refer to people who are not transgender. Most GC people strenuously object to cisgender. The only other term which works in this specific context is non-transgender, or non-trans.

Can you elaborate on this please? Exactly what transgender rights, in what context?

Because in the context of not being threatened, discrimated against or laughed at simply because one is gender non conforming, one could quite reasonably talk about transgender and non-transgender people.

But if one needs to talk about non-transgender women, one is not simply talking about transgender rights. One is talking about trans rights in the context of women. And whether one happens to refer to trans women in this context as trans women or trans people , one is ultimately really talking about the land grab of of female rights, support and spaces by male people.

So as ever with this movement, this movement based not on honest argument but on redefining words themselves, one has to look very very closely at the words Genderists throw around to sound reasonable ("people", "rights") and how they are actually using them ("women").

Oh BTW nice use of "ideology" there. I don't know if you realise but it's notable that whenever GC commentary highlights a problem with Gender Ideology, within a few weeks whatever phrasing is used to describe this problem will suddenly start turning up in pro-gender commentary being used to describe gender critical thought. It really is a highlight of your movement to appropriate words from the "other side" as a grasp for authority without truly understanding them, isn't it?

Genderist ideology is not just the belief that innate gendered identities exist independently of the body. It's the belief that these identities are a better way to organise society than sex, but also for some reason the structures set up based on sex can be flipped over to support a society based around gender with no further changes needed and with no adverse impact on the people who were being supported by the original versions. It is this second piece, the belief that life can and should be rearranged around gender lines, that makes Genderism an ideology.

I am very interested to know what beliefs you think make up "Gender Critical Ideology"?

OhHolyMoly · 29/08/2023 19:20

So in ASDA, I can buy Almond Milk, or Sweetened Almond Milk.

In Morrisons, I can buy Almond Milk, or Unsweetened Almond Milk.

So what is Almond Milk, and does it matter?

Surely ASDA is correct in this context, no?

Insommmmnia · 29/08/2023 19:22

OhHolyMoly · 29/08/2023 19:20

So in ASDA, I can buy Almond Milk, or Sweetened Almond Milk.

In Morrisons, I can buy Almond Milk, or Unsweetened Almond Milk.

So what is Almond Milk, and does it matter?

Surely ASDA is correct in this context, no?

That's not necessarily the right example though, because in this case almond milk not not actually milk, which is why it needs to extra word in front of it

So you have

Milk
Almond milk

The suggestion here is that milk is named non-almond milk which is a fairly useless name

SuperNewMe · 29/08/2023 19:27

YouJustDoYou · 29/08/2023 19:00

Vaginas are "BONUS HOLES". We are worth nothing.

Says who?
Again, is this just what some trans men might want to call it?
That's up to them if they want to call theirs that, surely.
Doesn't mean mine is!