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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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30
fromorbit · 09/02/2024 19:38

donquixotedelamancha · 09/02/2024 19:31

TRAs are arguing over the judgement suggesting that if the Green party followed correct procedure they could have dismissed Ali from his role so it is only a limited win. My understanding is this is correct in that the judgement indicated a party spokesperson should be expected to follow party policy and could be dismissed for not doing that.

Correct procedure isn't just some technicality, its how you ensure fairness. If they'd taken SA through a proper procedure they'd have had to show exactly what policy he was in violation of.

I suspect that most of the statements he was targetted for (that sex is real and women's rights matter) were not thing the GP actually has policies against.

The reason Genderists are losing every time is because they can't follow fair procedure and get the results they want. They act by bullying, tittle tattle and mob mentality.

Edited

Great point. They would have to define things and that would lead them into contradictions.

I think what the party does now is going to be interesting. We shall see what happens with the costs.

Obviously Alison Teal is going to be encouraged to step into the fray as well. Because again there is no sign of correct procedure in her case so it is another win for her.

The party leadership really have to decide what to do. Local elections only 3 months off.

IcakethereforeIam · 09/02/2024 19:39

Does this mean if they want to dismiss a Green Party official for being GC they'd have to put that they aren't allowed to believe that sex is real and cannot be changed in b&w in their rule book?

Signalbox · 09/02/2024 19:45

IcakethereforeIam · 09/02/2024 19:39

Does this mean if they want to dismiss a Green Party official for being GC they'd have to put that they aren't allowed to believe that sex is real and cannot be changed in b&w in their rule book?

This is what I’m wondering. Would they just need to be completely transparent and unambiguous about where they stand? They’ll hate that because the whole trans movement thrives on being opaque and ambiguous.

anyolddinosaur · 09/02/2024 20:14

One of the references in the judgement is to "obliging a person to manifest a belief which he does not hold has been held to be a limitation on his article 9(1) rights. " The 9 (1) refers to the The Human Rights Act Freedom of thought and belief. My reading of this is that members, even a party spokeperson, cant be forced to publicly state views they disagree with - but they can be required not to speak against party policy.

Those rights should be claimed in other court cases.

fromorbit · 09/02/2024 20:42

IcakethereforeIam · 09/02/2024 19:39

Does this mean if they want to dismiss a Green Party official for being GC they'd have to put that they aren't allowed to believe that sex is real and cannot be changed in b&w in their rule book?

Another potential problem is any rule written well enough to target a gender crit would also apply to most Muslims, Catholics etc.

cariadlet · 09/02/2024 20:47

Shahrar has said that the court didn't find that he'd breached party policy.

The Defendant (ie the Green Party) asked for such a ruling and it was refused.

donquixotedelamancha · 09/02/2024 20:55

IcakethereforeIam · 09/02/2024 19:39

Does this mean if they want to dismiss a Green Party official for being GC they'd have to put that they aren't allowed to believe that sex is real and cannot be changed in b&w in their rule book?

It really depends. Ali spoke against Self ID even after it was greens policy. If there was a fair process they possibly could have removed him from his post just for that (depending on details of that process, the policy and his statements).

Removing someone from the party would be harder because you'd need broad policies targeting any expression of views a GC person might make. The Lib Dems had a policy aimed at doing that and it was decided that was unlawful by their own legal advisors.

JanesLittleGirl · 09/02/2024 21:35

Hurrydash · 09/02/2024 19:34

I hope that you're being deliberately obtuse.

Quote from JanesLittle Girl post earlier.

My comment is not obtuse nor is it intended to be.

It's stating a scientific fact and the need for freedom of speech and debate.

No one should be excluded from political parties on the whim of another person who holds different views.

That's the whole point of this judgement.

You are being obtuse. OK, I should have said "man made climate change denier". It is a central tenet of the GP that we are in the grip of an existential climate crisis and any disagreement within the party I unacceptable. It's like being a republican member of the DUP.

MrsWhattery · 09/02/2024 21:39

'Ali’s views on transgender issues – he has described the biology of sex as “real and immutable” – are contrary to the party’s official stance and have been at the centre of previous internal rows over the issue.'

FFS that’s ridiculous. That’s like saying “X’s views on transgender issues - he has described the sea as “watery and big” - are contrary to the party’s official stance…“

How can these people not see how daft they sound? They are basically just making it extra clear that they according to them supporting “transgender issues” means you have to believe nonsense.

MrsWhattery · 09/02/2024 21:42

But anyway - well done and thank you Shahrar Flowers

nauticant · 09/02/2024 22:19

Shahrar Ali now being interviewed on Radio 4!

ArabeIIaScott · 09/02/2024 22:21

donquixotedelamancha · 09/02/2024 20:55

It really depends. Ali spoke against Self ID even after it was greens policy. If there was a fair process they possibly could have removed him from his post just for that (depending on details of that process, the policy and his statements).

Removing someone from the party would be harder because you'd need broad policies targeting any expression of views a GC person might make. The Lib Dems had a policy aimed at doing that and it was decided that was unlawful by their own legal advisors.

Greens also reportedly had legal advice on these issues.

https://thecritic.co.uk/it-isnt-easy-being-a-gender-critical-green/

It’s not easy being Gender Critical Green | Nathan Williams | The Critic Magazine

This weekend the Green Party is gathering for its Autumn conference in Brighton. Given the increasing urgency of the climate crisis and the appalling record of the current government you might think…

https://thecritic.co.uk/it-isnt-easy-being-a-gender-critical-green

Hurrydash · 09/02/2024 22:59

JanesLittleGirl says:

You are being obtuse. OK, I should have said "man made climate change denier". It is a central tenet of the GP that we are in the grip of an existential climate crisis and any disagreement within the party I unacceptable. It's like being a republican member of the DUP.

I find you repeatedly calling me obtuse offensive. But don't worry I'm not a snowflake.

One suggestion though, if the GP survives this financial and PR debacle and you are a member then stick to the facts in future debates and avoid insults.

Obviously sticking to the facts for a party that believes men can become women and vice versa may be a bit of a stretch.

cariadlet · 10/02/2024 07:26

Here's Shahrar's latest tweet. He explains why the Green Party's response is an exercise in denial and says that current senior officers who were on GPEx at the time should resign.
twitter.com/ShahrarAli/status/1756114370302530015?t=Ng8CGiXF16tUAO-c488_Kw&s=19

cariadlet · 10/02/2024 07:45

Good article from Jo Bartosch in Spiked.
www.spiked-online.com/2024/02/09/how-shahrar-ali-beat-the-trans-inquisition/

Signalbox · 10/02/2024 07:58

fromorbit · 09/02/2024 20:42

Another potential problem is any rule written well enough to target a gender crit would also apply to most Muslims, Catholics etc.

And most of the general population including those with no religion.

Signalbox · 10/02/2024 08:13

cariadlet · 10/02/2024 07:45

So there's Emma Bateman, Alison Teal and possibly also Dawn Furness waiting to sue the GP. I wonder if there are any other cases pending for UK political Parties?

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2024 08:15

There’s probably a whole heap of people within the Green Party who don’t believe TWAW (because they’re not all bonkers in their beliefs just because they’re a member) who now know they definitely can’t open their mouths because the Party will follow correct procedure next time to kick them out.

ArabeIIaScott · 10/02/2024 08:22

The judgement noted that while a spokesperson could possibly be removed from position for their views, this didn't apply to members.

RedToothBrush · 10/02/2024 08:29

So you might not like the current law, but a political party must respect the law. Thus you can campaign against it, but remain within the law. If someone defends the law and points out it's obligations and the rights it gives, you can not get rid of them from your party as that's unlawful. And fundamentally undemocratic and against your human rights to have your own beliefs. It's fundamentally democratic to have internal voices that hold different views within your party. Indeed they may add to your development of your party line because they are the people who tell you inconvenient truths about why your proposed law has negative unintended effects and give you an idea of how well your policy will go down with the wider public. But there are also cavets and limitations present.

In terms of the fundamental belief of each party, I don't think the main parties realise that their main belief is very narrow. It has to be based on the wider public understanding of what their party stands for. This is the reasonableness test. For this there's got to be a low bar to reflect public engagement levels and educational levels on politics and not something buried in your small print or details on policy. Let's call this the rather politically incorrect 'thicko test'. I appreciate this isn't the best term but it conveys the point in a way thats understandable. What's the lowest bar for a member of the public understand the difference between each party. And actually it's very tied up with their names. Thus the Green Party's fundamental interest - based on how the public understand the party - is green issues. The Labour Party is about workers rights and socialism. The Liberal Democrats believe in liberal democracy. And the Conservatives are about preservation of traditional concepts over radical change and are opposed to state intervention to change society as a general rule, particularly along economic lines.

However someone who is a party official, has a balancing act about towing the official policy and their own beliefs when acting in an official capacity.

I think the closest comparison in terms of case here is probably Tim Farron: he holds personal views which are known but he understands where the party sits on the policy and why others hold those views. He respects those other views and understands how representative of both the wider public and party membership they are. He also understands where the law sits on those issues and what would be deemed discriminatory. He can not legally be kicked out the party for having those views. He can internally voice his opinion and can say this is my personal belief and why he holds that belief as a party representative.

What he can't do is use his position to promote and publicly campaign externally to change party policy and effectively be seen to 'misrepresent' the official Green Party line. Again let's use the reasonableness argument. Would a member of the public after hearing him speak in his capacity as a party official, understand whether he was speaking in a party or personal capacity and would this impact on how that member of the public understood the official party line? If it would lead them to believe that the party policy was more gender critical than it is, that's problematic.

This is where Tim Farron was also unfairly treated as when it comes to the reasonableness test, the general public wouldn't understand him to hold his personal religious beliefs and where he has expressed them (including in the past before holding office) he has made it very clear they are personal beliefs and not representative of the party as a whole. The Lib Dems were therefore unfair in forcing him to step down in the way they did but were fair in allowing him to remain a member of the party despite having views inconsistent with the party line. It would have been difficult for Farron to have brazen it out having lost the confidence of key party members so he effectively had to resign in practice because his position was pretty untenable as he'd lost authority. But he would have been within his rights to stay and to try and regain that authority. If the party had then taken a decision to remove him by procedure rather than his own understanding that continuing probably was not in the party interest, it could have fallen foul of this ruling.

Tim Farron couldn't however express personal views that he believes in dictatorships. Because that's at odds with the core principles of the LDs. Anyone who is openly a climate change denier, is fundamentally at odds with the Green Party. Thus yes you could kick someone out for those beliefs because your agenda is clearly at odds to destroy the party from within and you are knowingly trying to undermine it. It's an act of hostility and deliberate attempt at sabotage of a political party and is therefore not democractic. The intent is very clear to destroy.

With regards to Jeremy Corbyn. He was arguably acting in a way that was unlawful as it's discriminatory and creating a hostile environment for certain members who had a protected characteristic. What he says goes further than criticism along political lines of a nation state and he's tried to impose his personal views on the party, with little distinction or understanding of the boundary of personal opinion and official party representative and how that reflects on the party as a whole. See the reasonableness test above and compare with how Tim Farron has acted. Corbyns opinions on the matter was front and central whereas Farrons are much more downplayed and he wasnt making repeated speeches about the subject in question. Corbyn was therefore bringing the party into disrupt with the public and at odds with the Equality Act.

Ali's case is different. And this is why the Equality Act is an important factor. No one can say that Ali's views are discriminatory, if he's drawing attention to existing law, the purpose of the law and how the law recognises sex. He isn't creating what others can term a hostile environment for others - he's referring to the law and how it's still relevant and how it should continue to be. He's not bringing the party into disrupt because of where the law stands. Because the law is about balancing needs of two groups who have protected status and explicitly singles out sex as having exemptions he certainly can't be accused of being discriminatory. Stating this as a front and central point personally can't bring the party into disrepute either because sex is a widely understood term by the public and recognised as being important for various reasons to PREVENT discrimination. But he could be fundamentally misrepresenting to the public what the party line is, if he is acting in an official capacity, campaigns too externally on the matter and doesn't make it explicitly clear that it's a personal view. If there is a blurring of lines, that's where the problem is. He should be able to hold official position, state that he recognises it's a contentious issue, that his personal views do not necessarily reflect the party line and internally lobby for a change to party position. I think the 'loudness' test is relevant here. How loudly was he speaking on the subject and in what setting? (see Tim Farron above for a reference point).

I hope that accurately and fairly reflects the situation and the differences. It's always about reasonableness as a concept. How do people reasonably understand the message?

Now, if I was Natalie Bird reading that judgement, I'd be feeling very happy today. If I was the Lib Dems, not so much. That case definitely jumps out at me. Funny how the lawyers at the LDs seem to already be on the case here. It's almost as if they realise there's an issue in this department...

borntobequiet · 10/02/2024 08:46

Very good points, very well made.

cariadlet · 10/02/2024 08:49

Signalbox · 10/02/2024 08:13

So there's Emma Bateman, Alison Teal and possibly also Dawn Furness waiting to sue the GP. I wonder if there are any other cases pending for UK political Parties?

That's not quite right.

Emma Bateman and Dawn Furness have existing cases.

Alison Teal recently announced that she will probably also join them. www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/alison-teal-sheffield-central-candidate-poised-to-take-legal-action-against-green-party-over-suspension-for-transgender-views-4503656

I know someone else who is talking to a lawyer and someone who is considering it.

ArabeIIaScott · 10/02/2024 08:52

Thanks, Red. Very useful to see comparisons with other parties.

I think the GPEW needs to define genderism - if members are claiming that Ali's GC views are counter to policy then what policy denies sex is biological and immutable?

WarriorN · 10/02/2024 08:54

Brilliant analysis as always Red, thank you.

cariadlet · 10/02/2024 09:14

ArabeIIaScott · 10/02/2024 08:52

Thanks, Red. Very useful to see comparisons with other parties.

I think the GPEW needs to define genderism - if members are claiming that Ali's GC views are counter to policy then what policy denies sex is biological and immutable?

Probably the crazy policy, pushed through by a handful of TRAs, that "Transwomen are women, transmen are men and non-binary identities are valid."

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