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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Chess is a feminist issue.

111 replies

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 17/08/2023 14:15

https://twitter.com/mikesalter74/status/1692011020032868405

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-gender-chess-players-lose-titles-biological-birth-jhfdckm0c

'Transgender women will be banned from competing in top-level female chess tournaments while the game’s governing body adjudicates whether they have an unfair advantage.'

https://twitter.com/mikesalter74/status/1692011020032868405

OP posts:
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Icedlatteplease · 18/08/2023 16:42

So many problems...

@RebelliousCow
The idea there is any difference in male and female brains has long since been de bunked example here. Any perceived differences are likely to be because of ingrained sociatal prejudice. It is a misconception that was symptomatic of the entrenched sexism encountered by both myself and my daughter on the chess circuit. And we wonder why bright girls might not what to continue in an social situation where they are considered inferior unable to achieve equally because if their "female brain".

@FraterculaArctica

When you are registering at your first tournament at 6-8 years old and you approach the table do you think that you are likely to say "well actually I'm going to register for the boys tournament" or as a boy "actually I'm joining the girls"... for that matter do you think those registering people even offer that choice

@Snowypeaks

Why are we isolating girls so they don't encounter sexism? Why aren't we challenging sexism?

Why are we teaching girls they can't possibly succeed in mixed competition?

Why are we assuming it's the boys alone expressing the sexism given the all above comments were, I assume, expressed by women?

Neurosexism: the myth that men and women have different brains

The hunt for male and female distinctions inside the skull is a lesson in bad research practice, writes Lise Eliot.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00677-x

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 18/08/2023 16:47

excerpt

“Why is there a need for Girl’s or Women’s tournaments?”

This is probably one of the top 5 questions I have most often been asked over the past 15 years, since creating the Susan Polgar Foundation in 2002.

I would like to walk you through some history and then explain to you some challenges girls / women face in chess. But before we start down this journey, I want to make one thing abundantly clear. I have not changed my point of view. I do strongly believe that if given equal opportunities, women are just as capable in chess, and many other STEM fields, as are men. However, I still adamantly believe that there is a serious need for SOME “girls only” or “women only” events.

One of the first accomplishments of my foundation was to successfully lobby the US Chess Federation (USCF) to allow me and my foundation to organize all-girls events. I personally fought for this, and through other initiatives as well, to get more girls in chess. Up until my fight, there were no all-girls tournaments in the United States. I faced many objections and challenges to this idea. A number of the chess politicians really believed that it was a bad idea to “encourage” more girls to play chess, or to provide them with “opportunities” to excel in chess. Some even went out of their way to express their beliefs that it is “cruel and unusual punishment” to introduce girls to chess. They are not bad people but that is what they believed or just how they felt. Unfortunately, some people still feel the same way today.

In 2003, the Susan Polgar National Invitational for Girls, which is now SPF Girl’s Invitational (SPFGI), became the first ever all-girls’ event approved and sanctioned by the USCF, after more than a year of lobbying and countless meetings. It was my dream to revolutionize chess for young people, especially girls. I believe with all my heart that chess can and will help children of all ages, in many different aspects. Naturally, some will want to take chess seriously, maybe to become grandmasters, or even World or Olympiad Champions. But for most, chess will be a fun game which can teach them many valuable life lessons. This is important to me.

The first ever Susan Polgar National Invitational for Girls took place in 2004. Many young ladies who took part in this annual event went on to college, have families, and wonderful careers. Many became doctors, lawyers, mathematicians, engineers, bankers, entrepreneurs, etc. Some are starting to teach their own children how to play chess.

Because of the recognized value of the SPFGI, today there are countless all-girls tournaments and girls’ chess initiatives across the country. Not only do more girls participate in chess than ever before, but the level also went up dramatically! SPFGI remains the top, all-girls chess event in the world, with over $207,500 in scholarships and cash prizes in 2017, and with a budget of about $250,000. Unfortunately, many young girls and their parents today do not know the history and what it took to change the chess culture in this country.

First, even though we are in the 21st century, there is still a social stigma, according to which, girls are not supposed to want to become firefighters, mathematicians, engineers, or (yes!) chess players, etc. Many parents do not recognize that they are inadvertently feeding into this by giving their daughters stereotypical girl-toys, such as Barbie dolls, make-up and other “girly” toys.

For those parents (or teachers) who believe that girls can be anything they want to be, they face an uphill battle and a lot of extra obstacles (and expenses) in the chess world (just as in other male-dominated fields). It starts out with the serious difficulty in finding female chess coaches. There is a tremendous shortage. Some ask why the need for a female coach. There are several valid reasons, besides mentorship. For example, while a male coach may take a male student to an out-of-town competition and share a room, most parents of girls would never consent to the same. Therefore, even if they would allow their teenage daughters to travel with the male coaches, they would need to get a second hotel room which is a significant extra expense. Let’s say a hotel room with taxes is $100-150 a night, and most serious events would range from 6-11 days, you can do the math.

Secondly, boys / men are on average more aggressive and competitive. At a younger age, girls often face demeaning and insulting comments such as “chess is not for girls”, “girls cannot play chess”, or “you’re stupid”, etc. For the girls who survive the early difficult years and still remain in chess, things get worse during the adolescent years. An even bigger and more dangerous issue looms larger. While 90% of guys at most chess tournaments (or in chess clubs) may behave as perfect gentlemen, there is about a 10% who behave very disrespectfully towards women, especially when they have had a few drinks.

During my career, I had numerous occasions from personal experience where various male chess players made me feel awfully uncomfortable, and very unsafe, by making unsolicited and unwanted sexual advances. At times, they refused to take “NO” for an answer. On a few occasions, I was even extremely fearful for my physical safety. Sadly, many of my female chess- playing colleagues have similar stories to mine. This is why during my early years, I rarely dressed up or wore make-up. I did not want to stand out and be a bigger target. While many women want to look better, I “chose” to be less attractive.

This is why I am so thankful that my parents have sacrificed a lot (and not just financially) to accompany me to most of my out-of-town chess competitions even into my 20’s. This is an issue that most guys rarely, if ever, face. Given the gross disproportion of men versus women at most open chess tournaments, this is a serious issue that can make girls/ women feel uncomfortable, distracted, and in fact, for many girls to the degree that they give up chess all together.

Even today, when women are more accepted in chess compared to when I started out in the 1970’s, these problems still continue. For example, when I recently made a complaint about a certain male chess player, not only did the organizer ignore my warnings (implying that it is a non-issue), but they went ahead and spent more money to promote this person. Many in the chess world know who the “trouble makers” who demean, insult, and abuse women are, but nothing is done about it. To make it worse, those trouble makers in their circles get high-fives and praises for their despicable actions. Some of them compete to see who can “score” more.

These are some of the main reasons why I feel that it is very important for young girls, as well as for women to have also SOME female-only events. This is where they do not have to deal with all the above mentioned possible distractions and uncomfortable situations as we often face in open events. Also, such all-girl events serve as wonderful bonding experience, especially for younger girls, where they encourage each other to stay in chess instead of quitting.

Thirdly, even when a few blossomed, they are being punished and pushed down. When I became the #1 ranked female chess player in the world at age 15, some chess politicians could not accept this unprecedented success. They wanted to punish me for wanting to be as strong as the boys by competing only in open tournaments with boys and men. They wanted to make an example of me to discourage others from following my footsteps.

continues Why is there a need for girls' or women's tournaments?

- “Why is there a need for Girl’s or Women’s Tournaments?”

“Why is there a need for Girl’s or Women’s tournaments?” This is probably one of the top 5 …

https://chessdailynews.com/why-is-there-a-need-for-girls-or-womens-tournaments

Snowypeaks · 18/08/2023 18:04

@Icedlatteplease

I would not deliberately expose young girls to sexism in chess. I would build up their self esteem and confidence, so that when they do encounter sexism later on in open competition (and in life), they have the confidence to challenge it and the resilience to recover from setbacks due to sexism or misogyny.

One of the best ways to increase the confidence and resilience of girls is through competitive sport, like football. Or a competitive pastime, like chess. They learn to work hard, apply themselves and enjoy the success that their hard work brings them. They learn to analyse their own performances and to value constructive criticism. They develop faith in their own judgement. They also learn from failure, not to be discouraged by it. To speak up if they are unhappy about something. It's tough enough to learn all that, to go against the messages society is giving you, without throwing nasty boys, sexual assaults and misogynistic officials into the mix. The boys don't have to deal with all that (except maybe the nasty boys bit) so why should the girls? You're not going to encourage young girls to take up chess or stick with it if you make it an unwelcoming environment - an environment unwelcoming specifically to girls. Most girls don't start out tough and determined and all the other things Susan Polgar clearly is, but in the right environment - a boy-free, sexism-free environment, they learn to be all these things. They're not feminist warriors at this stage, they're just girls who think chess might be fun to learn.

Some of those unsupportive comments in the article sound just like you! 😂I don't know why you think they were all from women, since anyone of either sex can read the article, but in any case sexism and misogyny are belief systems which men or women, boys or girls, can hold.

We aren't teaching girls they can't succeed in open competition. Some of the girls will be encouraged to go on and compete successfully in that arena. FIDE are providing a space to nourish and develop the girls and inculcate the love of the game in them. Because of the way society treats them, girls and boys do not start off on a level playing field. This carve-out is a way to even things up.

I was glad to see that Polgar mentioned female coaches because I think they are especially vital. The England Lionesses (European champions in football) said this in their open letter to the government last year:

We ask you and your government to ensure that all girls have access to a minimum of 2 hours a week PE. Not only should we be offering football to all girls, we also need to invest in and support female PE teachers too. Their role is crucial and we need to give them the resources to provide girls' football sessions. They are key role models from which so many young girls can flourish.

Leah Williamson (captain of England Women) has also said:
...All of my coaches were incredible along the way. I could have had a terrible experience playing for a boys' team aged six but my first coach made sure it was a experience I want to relive over and over!

I've no idea what that neurosexism accusation is about. One of the first things Susan Polgar says is that she believes that girls can become just as proficient as boys at chess - and she has proved it over and over as have her protegees.

Susan Polgar is an absolute heroine for giving back in this way. I am blown away by her generosity. And I've no doubt her strength of character was forged from her career as a chess player - facing challenges while being supported by her wonderful family and her mentors. All girls who want the same should be able to have it - the game and the support.

Thatcat · 18/08/2023 18:12

Thanks for the article link @ArabeIIaKarenScott

@NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision , I don’t think it does at all actually. But I do think we’re talking crossing purposes.

Sure, I can absolutely see why there needs to be a targeted recruitment into the sport for young girls in the same way there is for boys, and certainly efforts towards equity to have them competing in sport in the first place. Nothing against girls clubs either.

But when talking about competing, I can understand that if women were never given the opportunity early on to practice and compete as men did, they may feel they won’t be as skilled and therefore need to compete at a less elite level. When other discriminated demographic groups (I’m not speaking re:trans) aren’t given the same opportunity they don’t get to play at all.

If women’s competitive group is a place were those who were disadvantaged by lack of opportunities go to play, not because their potential is less than a man’s, but their training opportunity has been lower quality and therefore their game is just got as good, is this not just a less superior chess group to men?

The fact still remains that if women don’t challenge the ‘elite male’, the 98% elite will remain male, the coaches remain male, the whole structure remains supporting males and the beat goes on. I do hope there’ll be more funding to create equality of opportunity for girls so they can compete equally.

FraterculaArctica · 18/08/2023 18:30

@Icedlatteplease but the vast majority of the world's say top 200 women players would disagree with you, and agree with Susan Polgar. The experience of initiatives such as the She Plays to Win charity also strongly supports the value of girls-only events.

Someone posted above a statistic of 40 percent of chess playing primary school children being girls. In my (extensive) experience this is way too optimistic. And even fewer of those who play in school, are likely to enter competitions outside of school.

What puts children off competitive chess is playing in competitions where they are out of their depth. We dont notice the boys who score 0/5 or 1/6 and then drop out, because there are so many of them! But if the handful of (often less confident, more easily intimidated by little boys who turn up at the board saying "I'm going to kill you!") drop out after their first two or three competitions, there are barely any girls left.

It doesn't actually matter whether your 6 or 8 year old girl plays in open or girls events to start with. Becoming a good chess player is about seeking appropriate competitive challenges - any child who shows some ability has to learn this and find their level in suitably chosen events. For the best girls, this means sooner or later starting to play in mixed events (and in adult competitions).

I am sorry your daughter was put off by her experiences. However, there are at least as many if not more who feel that the mixed/girls events set up we have is the right way forward at present.

Icedlatteplease · 18/08/2023 18:47

FraterculaArctica · 18/08/2023 18:30

@Icedlatteplease but the vast majority of the world's say top 200 women players would disagree with you, and agree with Susan Polgar. The experience of initiatives such as the She Plays to Win charity also strongly supports the value of girls-only events.

Someone posted above a statistic of 40 percent of chess playing primary school children being girls. In my (extensive) experience this is way too optimistic. And even fewer of those who play in school, are likely to enter competitions outside of school.

What puts children off competitive chess is playing in competitions where they are out of their depth. We dont notice the boys who score 0/5 or 1/6 and then drop out, because there are so many of them! But if the handful of (often less confident, more easily intimidated by little boys who turn up at the board saying "I'm going to kill you!") drop out after their first two or three competitions, there are barely any girls left.

It doesn't actually matter whether your 6 or 8 year old girl plays in open or girls events to start with. Becoming a good chess player is about seeking appropriate competitive challenges - any child who shows some ability has to learn this and find their level in suitably chosen events. For the best girls, this means sooner or later starting to play in mixed events (and in adult competitions).

I am sorry your daughter was put off by her experiences. However, there are at least as many if not more who feel that the mixed/girls events set up we have is the right way forward at present.

I'm not sure the top 200 who have made it through are best placed to comment on why (most) girls leave.

And for the record I'm not against girls only events that promote female involvement (I actually agree with much of what Susan poulgar says). However if we think that's what's happening in the UK with the junior league being segregated by gender we need a rethink.

From memory when competing in county tournaments, you should reach a sensible competition within your first three games. Quicker if it isnt your first tournament and you're already ranked.

MrGHardy · 18/08/2023 22:46

RealityFan · 17/08/2023 14:25

Ian "Big on Brexit and Tories, but MIA on women's issues" Dunt has already Tweeted that because there's no physical advantage in chess, excluding trans can only be for cruel and prejudiced reasons.

No Ian, just let girls and women have ONE FUCKING SPACE TO THEMSELVES!

This tournament has Female and Open categories. MEN! GET IN YOUR FUCKING LANE!

What is cruel and prejudiced about it? As you say, let females have this space. What is supposedly cruel and prejudiced about it?

Saturdaymorningcoffee · 19/08/2023 09:05

Slightly off topic, but are you all aware of the allegations of sexual assault which are now circulating on Twitter and the ECF Forum? I'm amazed that this hasn't had more publicity yet - may definitely a Me Too moment for the chess world.

I asked someone I know who knows the people involved. His response was "oh, everyone knew about it".

Snowypeaks · 19/08/2023 09:20

Well, there you go! More evidence that female-only spaces serve a purpose...

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 19/08/2023 09:44

MrGHardy · 18/08/2023 22:46

What is cruel and prejudiced about it? As you say, let females have this space. What is supposedly cruel and prejudiced about it?

I presume he's saying that it's cruel and prejudiced of women to want to exclude men from their spaces/competitions.

Some people can't stand the idea that women have boundaries that should be respected.

OP posts:
Cycleorrun · 19/08/2023 11:01

Icedlatteplease · 18/08/2023 09:31

Chess is where we should have mixed competitions.

Sexism in chess is absolutely rife.The exclusion of transwoman is not coming from a good place for women. Its coming from the wholehearted believe that men are without doubt superior to women in chess.

This was very clear at every point of the junior

Organisers make it clear the male participants are considered to be naturally better, male trophies often bigger, organisers more likely to give discretionary awards to the boys make regular sexist comments.

Will put a lot if girls off, certainly put DD off and she had the potential to be quite good.

Focusing on the trans stuff misses the far bigger problem

In the UK chess is mixed at most levels, but very few women play. What we are talking about here is encouraging more female players to enter or stay in chess. (Under represented group). There are very few female only tournaments except at junior level.
One friend's daughter who played chess in the family started a new school and went along to the chess club there. It was all boys and she wouldn't go back, even though she loved chess. It's all to do with numbers. If the club had been all girls and a lone boy had turned up the result might well have been the same.

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