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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Chess is a feminist issue.

111 replies

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 17/08/2023 14:15

https://twitter.com/mikesalter74/status/1692011020032868405

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-gender-chess-players-lose-titles-biological-birth-jhfdckm0c

'Transgender women will be banned from competing in top-level female chess tournaments while the game’s governing body adjudicates whether they have an unfair advantage.'

https://twitter.com/mikesalter74/status/1692011020032868405

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Snowypeaks · 17/08/2023 15:53

Waspie · 17/08/2023 15:36

Smile way back it used to be the King who was the most powerful piece on the board, and the Queen piece didn't exist. All of the pieces were male. The Queen piece was introduced to honour a medieval Queen and her power as a piece rose until she took over from the King. I can't remember the full story but I like to think that women, at least in the ruling classes, used to play chess to a very high standard.

Show quote history

I love Mumsnet for little nuggets of info like this. Thanks, @Waspie

Original poster
ArabeIIaKarenScott · 17/08/2023 16:29

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/19/crosswords/chess/a-queen-in-any-other-language.html

Thanks, Waspie, that's really interesting history! I found this article on it.

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GrumpyPanda · 17/08/2023 17:02

The main Twitter thread, i.e. the one Salter is linking to, has a lot of the usual bleating about "two underrepresented groups." Makes me wonder if that's actually the case. We know the basis for male advantage in chess is laid in childhood, and there's certainly plenty of men who say they're women in related fields like IT. So breaking it down proportionally to their share of the population, doesn't that make it even more probable that this particular group may even be overrepresented in chess?

Snowypeaks · 17/08/2023 17:08

Really interesting article.

Original poster
ArabeIIaKarenScott · 17/08/2023 17:16

GrumpyPanda · 17/08/2023 17:02

The main Twitter thread, i.e. the one Salter is linking to, has a lot of the usual bleating about "two underrepresented groups." Makes me wonder if that's actually the case. We know the basis for male advantage in chess is laid in childhood, and there's certainly plenty of men who say they're women in related fields like IT. So breaking it down proportionally to their share of the population, doesn't that make it even more probable that this particular group may even be overrepresented in chess?

Even if both groups are underrepresented, why should they both be lumped in together?

Have a separate 'trans' competition, by all means, if under representation is the problem.

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CanadianJohn · 17/08/2023 17:32

I organised chess tournaments for many years, mostly for children. In my experience, at the primary age it is about 35-40% female, but there is a huge drop-off in the teenage years.

The boys seem to be more willing to play in secondary school, but competitive chess is intellectually demanding, and as the boys start working towards a career, in seconday school and in university, chess becomes a recreational activity for most. Probably a good thing.

The world championship has two categories, last time I checked, "open" and "female". No woman has ever qualified for the open championship. As a previous poster said, only one woman has ever cracked the top 100 rating list, and she was very much an outlier.

Someone once said that women are too smart to play chess.

donnawinters · 17/08/2023 17:36

BCCoach · 17/08/2023 14:23

I had no idea that chess competitions were split by sex category and I'm struggling to understand why (I can't read the thread). It's a board game, not a physical sport.

Chess player here.

The reason we have separate tournaments for men and women, including world championships, is mainly because a lot more men play and study chess than women. This means the world's top players are dominantly men, so separate women's tournaments allows the best female players to get more recognition.

AFAIK I don't see any reason why being male or having more testosterone etc would provide an advantage in chess. Unless you want to make a case for more testosterone would make you play more aggressive moves or something, which certainly helps you win.

Imnobody4 · 17/08/2023 17:44

Angela Eagle never fails to disappoint;

There is no physical advantage in chess unless you believe men are inherently more able to play than women - I spent my chess career being told women’s brains were smaller than men’s & we shouldn’t even be playing - This ban is ridiculous & offensive to women

There was I thinking she supported all women's shortlists. No, sorry my mistake TWAW. Not sure what her argument is.

Snowypeaks · 17/08/2023 17:44

GrumpyPanda · 17/08/2023 17:02

The main Twitter thread, i.e. the one Salter is linking to, has a lot of the usual bleating about "two underrepresented groups." Makes me wonder if that's actually the case. We know the basis for male advantage in chess is laid in childhood, and there's certainly plenty of men who say they're women in related fields like IT. So breaking it down proportionally to their share of the population, doesn't that make it even more probable that this particular group may even be overrepresented in chess?

Yup. 0.5% of the population claim a special identity. Even if all of them were male, which they're not, there would have to be fewer than 0.5% men claiming to be women in chess for the demographic to be underrepresented.

Mumofteenandtween · 17/08/2023 18:22

I used to work with a bloke who was very very good at chess. He reckoned that women were less good at chess because chess is a war game and you need a propensity for violence to be good at it.

I took that as that chess is played by men who ideally would be fighting in bus shelters on a Friday night but who don’t have the “physique” to do so. (I’m an actuary - I know a lot of chess players!)

If only Scrappy Doo had discovered chess….

ResisterRex · 17/08/2023 18:26

Imnobody4 · 17/08/2023 17:44

Angela Eagle never fails to disappoint;

There is no physical advantage in chess unless you believe men are inherently more able to play than women - I spent my chess career being told women’s brains were smaller than men’s & we shouldn’t even be playing - This ban is ridiculous & offensive to women

There was I thinking she supported all women's shortlists. No, sorry my mistake TWAW. Not sure what her argument is.

Angela Eagle:

gendercriticalwoman.blog/2023/06/22/angela-eagle-mp/

IhaveanewTVnow · 17/08/2023 18:29

If I was a chess player and younger I would want to learn in a female environment. Chess is so male dominated that I would feel intimidated

Justme56 · 17/08/2023 18:39

There is no physical advantage in chess. Is Angela admitting that TW have an advantage in other sports? Thought the activist argument was that they didn’t?

SlowDog · 17/08/2023 18:43

I feel sure that men have no intrinsic advantage in Chess, so one day there may be no need for separate women's competitions.

So far 41 women have reached the level of Grandmaster. Judit Polgar reached the world top 10, and in 2005 was one of 8 players who played in the tournament to determine the world champion.

Women have done arguably even better in Go, which also has many hundreds of professional players and presumably requires similar skills. Choi Jeong was the runner up in the Samsung Fire Cup (one of the most prestigious international tournaments) last year. The reigning British Champion is a woman and two women have won the European championship.

Surely male dominance in these types of strategic board games has been due solely to the fact that there have historically been a much greater number of male players?

Mollyollydolly · 17/08/2023 19:01

Ian Dunt blocked me today on twitter because in response to his thread I said he was a fraud and an utter disappointment.
I'm normally fairly polite, but I just saw red when I saw that thread saying the only reason to ban trans women was hatred.
I've bought his books, marched with him over Brexit and he's just such an utter disappointment. Never once has he tweeted about women's sport, swimming, weightlifting, any of it. Lefty men are the worse.
He just cant see why women should be allowed anything for themselves, even in something like chess where women are no under represented.
I actually loathe people like Ian more than I loathe Farage now. How the fuck did that happen??

Mollyollydolly · 17/08/2023 19:06

Oh and apparently Angela Eagle was a keen chess player in her youth and has tweeted in the past about how misogynistic it is.. make any of it make sense.

Original poster
ArabeIIaKarenScott · 17/08/2023 19:06

Imnobody4 · 17/08/2023 17:44

Angela Eagle never fails to disappoint;

There is no physical advantage in chess unless you believe men are inherently more able to play than women - I spent my chess career being told women’s brains were smaller than men’s & we shouldn’t even be playing - This ban is ridiculous & offensive to women

There was I thinking she supported all women's shortlists. No, sorry my mistake TWAW. Not sure what her argument is.

Presumably she didn't arm wrestle her way into the Shadow Cabinet.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/14/labour-shadow-cabinet-angela-eagle-extra-title-women-row

Angela Eagle's extra title due to Labour 'women row'

Shadow business secretary’s second post as shadow first secretary of state was an afterthought, Labour source confirms

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/14/labour-shadow-cabinet-angela-eagle-extra-title-women-row

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ResisterRex · 17/08/2023 19:08

Justme56 · 17/08/2023 18:39

There is no physical advantage in chess. Is Angela admitting that TW have an advantage in other sports? Thought the activist argument was that they didn’t?

Grin
Original poster
ArabeIIaKarenScott · 17/08/2023 19:11

Oh.

'Ms Eagle led a strike in the girls’ division of the British Chess Championship in 1976 because they were forced to play in a dark corner of the room on inferior boards that gave her a headache.'

So, she played in the girls' division, but is now protesting its existence?

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Original poster
ArabeIIaKarenScott · 17/08/2023 19:11

“There was a great deal of sexism, some of it unthinking, some of it deliberate, all of which outraged me,” she said. “By the time I stopped playing tournament chess regularly, at 23, there were improvements but still much more to do, not least to ensure that women and girls get their fair share of the resources which are available to nurture UK chess talent. I bet it still hasn’t changed enough.”

Come ON, Angela!

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ResisterRex · 17/08/2023 19:12

Mollyollydolly · 17/08/2023 19:06

Oh and apparently Angela Eagle was a keen chess player in her youth and has tweeted in the past about how misogynistic it is.. make any of it make sense.

So she did...

x.com/angelaeagle/status/1684150147171643394?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

Just 22 days ago

Original poster
ArabeIIaKarenScott · 17/08/2023 19:13

22 days is a long time in politics. And chess, presumably.

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Mollyollydolly · 17/08/2023 19:16

22 days. Dunt and Eagle, no good for my blood pressure, the very definition of gaslighting.

ResisterRex · 17/08/2023 19:16

Also in 2014:

No endgame to sexism in chess, says MP

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2ac4593c-d6eb-4ba0-8a37-d81e6327d6e6?shareToken=f801378b6cf71b53be47d9633f68e578