If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

[AmaListening]

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

Can I suggest that you go and research the case that you are referring to?

The woman in question is not 'taking legal action against a women's charity that supports rape victims for letting a trans person join their group therapy'. The woman is taking the charity to court because they refused to create a female only space. Despite having a men's group, a dedicated LGBT group and a 'women's' group. The woman asked for a female only group in addition to the others because having a male present in the group retraumatised her.

If Cox was assaulted, why on earth wouldn't Cox choose either the male group or the LGBT group. What would Cox have in common with female people who have been raped by a male? And as a trans person, why wouldn't Cox seek to have their unique needs as a trans person addressed?

To be clear, no feminist has said that a trans person should not receive a high level of care that is suited to their unique needs. Do you believe that feminists have said that they should not?

Perfect response and agree entirely

I think organisations such as Stonewall and other trans campaign groups should lobby for third spaces and categories; and that includes the sorts of services you mention.

Every other civil rights campaign has lobbied for their own provision where necessary. Different groups have different needs.

As for Elliot page, i'd be fine with her using the women's toilets - after all she is female; but i suspect that she might not want to - and so third gender neutral spaces would work better in that case,

Elliot Page - yes, fine, as others have said, Page is female and I frankly feel sorry for Page.

Rape services - you need to read the full story of Sarah's lawsuit. Iirc - the centre provided a women's session, a men's session and a mixed session. Sarah went to the women's session and found a person there who looked entirely male in men's clothes etc - but nothing would be done about it as the centre had to assume this person had special secret lady feelings inside else this person wouldn't have gone along to the women's session. I don't even think this person even contributed - just listened to the women's stories. So the point is - when you have policies like this, you aren't just inviting in post-operative transexuals who are in genuine need of the service, you are also opening the door to any man and backing yourself into a corner of being able to question any of them. Read up on what actually happens when these policies are in place - there's an article called "protecting men at the women's shelter" which makes pretty grim reading - Google it.

What should trans ppl do - imo, they should receive mental health treatment. I think it's unethical for doctors to operate or prescribe hormones for this reason. I do not believe a person can be born in the wrong body. I also note that the vast majority of those under the "trans" umbrella are not even making any modifications anyway - in which case, why do they need to be waving their cocks around in the ladies changing rooms?

What do i think they should do ? Go and live their life in whatever way they wish but do not expect anyone to lie. It is that simple.

Stonewall are loaded, they could easily fund group counselling services for male rape victims, including males who identify as women.

Yes, definitely! Most women's services were created by women organising and running them themselves.

As pp have said: you've been misinformed.

Leverne and any other male rape victim needing support services would have no less than three different accessible groups they could choose from to find the one that best met their needs.

The woman taking the charity to court merely wants one single group that she can access at all. This is not provided, and she is left with nothing, because the trans activists involved refused to provide a female only group - even in another building or place in the town - because it's mere existence upset male users. (Who already had three options they could choose from.)

Where do you think women should go for support?

No one here wishes to see TQ people without equality of resources. Do you wish the same equality for all women?

I'm at a bit of a loss as to why this question is even being asked. Take sports as an example - if a grown adult knowingly and of their own free will either doesn't want to take part in sports with their own sex or chooses to take unnecessary medication that breaks the rules and therefore bars them from entering, exactly what am I supposed to do about it? It's no bigger an issue than, say, someone wants to play a sport at Olympic level but can't be bothered practising at all. No one can have it both ways and all choices have consequences.

Agreed. Nobody is forcing them to make themselves ineligible.

I would expect trans activists to stop targeting people that disagrees with them.
I would expect trans activists to not dox people or attack their families.

Other than sports and sex based only spaces, I would expect them to get on with their lives without pushing their doctrine on anybody especially the vulnerable.

How strange that, with 17 pages of very reasonable replies, the OP hasn’t been back to comment!

It always seemed incongruous that a male who is taking performance limiting medication was ever considered as a fair competitor to female people. Athletes are heavily restricted as to the chemicals they can ingest in any form. And many athletes have had to cope with disappointment in having to choose performance limiting medication or keep competing but risk their health.

Why was this group of male people ever considered so different?

Honestly, it always surprised me that a male who has lost their testes due to injury or disease should be treated differently to a male who has chosen a medical route for their health issue. But that is what has happened. It does discriminate against those males who have no testes producing testosterone, yet not once have I seen this ever acknowledged.

The only difference between the two male groups is that one has a gender identity and the other does not. Therefore, the group without the gender identity doesn't get a special dispensation to compete with the female athletes and win acclaim and prize money.

The reality is that whenever you starting to pull a thread with this ideological thinking, it lacks cohesiveness, consistency and logic.

@vibecheck How should women be defined if biology isn’t important and what would be the point in the category? I just don’t understand how it’s relevant having such categories if biology isn’t the reason behind it. Otherwise it’s surely just stereotypes of what men and women do.

Just to repeat this

The other thing is women don’t need to do anything when it comes to men

It’s for their own sex class to find solutions. Not us

Don’t call themselves a lesbian if they are biological male who has a sexual attraction to women. Don’t pressurise lesbians into sex. Respect the need for single sex spaces, sports etc. don’t describe not being able to compete in women’s sports as genocide.

Where are all the middle aged trans men?

I think the whole ideology needs to be dismantled.

In law, repealing the GRA and correcting any birth certificates that have been altered using this law. Removing the gender reassignment protection from the EA.

In media, removal of the IPSO regulations that prevent news outlets from reporting in terms of sex.

In schools, teaching about gender identity ideology only in RE lessons, and absolutely not as if its factual.

In medicine, a ban on any 'gender-affirming' care for children, and massively restricting this for adults to be heavily therapy-centred instead.

And so on and so forth. It's harmful and is a regressive step back to a society where conservative gender stereotypes are imposed.

I have never seen answer that is convincing. So, I would love to see this answered too.

What does the word ‘woman’ mean if it’s not related to biology? I’ve never seen a convincing answer to this either. Our visitors usually just call it a dog whistle and leave; but it’s a genuine question

Where are all the trans women who just hang out in jeans and hoodies like about 80% of the women I know

Stephen Whittle!

And as I discovered listening to Front Row yesterday, Italian film director Emanuele Crialese.

But I can't think of a middle aged woman who suddenly transitioned (except for Amanda jette Knox )

"Where are all the trans women who just hang out in jeans and hoodies like about 80% of the women I know"

Thing is- I am prepared to believe that there are plenty of them. They are just, quite sensibly, keeping their heads down.