If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

[AmaListening]

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

@AmaListening Ok, so in your ideal world, where would Laverne Cox go to the toilet, if out in public? If she were an athlete or wanted to be a competitive sportsperson, how would she go about that

She should have ready access to gender-neutral facilities everywhere (and places where all loos are single-occpancy rooms with full floor-to-ceiling doors and walls should be gender-neutral by default, only larger toilet areas with gaps around cubicle doors and walls and shared washing facilities need be single-sex)

Sporting events should - as some have recently been announced - be divided into an "open" category that anyone of any sex or gender can enter, and a "female" category open only to people born female. Laverne can compete in the open category with no implications regarding gender.

I would say that anyone who identifies as a woman is welcome to attend 'women only' spaces.

So I'll ask yet again - since it's been asked several times on this thread alone and no one ever answers.

This is lovely - but what do you plan to do with all the women who cannot use mixed sex spaces and who you just excluded entirely from access to services, resources and equality of public life in order to generously give male people the freedom to choose their sex and use whatever space they prefer?

Honestly. Please. Someone.

Is this a case of simple racism/classism? That these women aren't like you and yours and so you don't see them as important enough to be worth equality? Is this the new Margot Leadbetter just washing inconvenient grotty people out of her naice middle class white British society?

Because it's repeatedly explained that these women exist, it isn't that you don't know.

Someone own it.

Why do you see these women as worthless and wish to exclude them from society?

And why are you pretending to believe that these men are women when you're making it very clear that you believe male people's entitlements come before female people's basic equality and human rights? It's fantastically sexist in a very binary way, you know exactly which sex you think should have choice at the expense of the other sex's equality and humanity.

And why does no one ever have the guts to actually own and defend this awful belief system? Is it because you know there's something very, very wrong with it?

Stupid question. It isn’t up to GC people to come up with a solution, it’s up to the social contagion to debate and sort out a solution for them that doesn’t impact anyone else. They are the problem not GC people.

I am sure there are some U16s who would CHOOSE to race against U12s if they could - they'd be guaranteed a win every race. Not gonna happen. Having "gender neutral" races is a non-starter - you wouldn't get enough entries to actually have a race.

Obviously gender neutral single occupancy toilets are the answer. To that question. And not just changing the label on the door of the women's.

I disagree, in sport it is GC people who have come up with the solution - it was a disaster when we just left it to the "be kind" crowd. Once the grownups said "enough is enough", things changed.

I think the main things trans people could do is recognise that children can’t consent to life altering treatment or surgery that will put them on medication for life. Also that children taking the lead and affirmation in healthcare are not good for a lot of children. And it should be professionals leading not children calling the shots. So many learn what to say from online to get what they want. Their issues should be looked at first. Transition is not the magic cure all it’s marketed as.

When you hear someone describe themselves as ex-gay you roll your eyes as they’re inevitably going to be some highly religious person who no one believes has changed their sexuality. They’re just in denial. But look at the increasing number of young people who are de-transitioners they’re genuine and should be looked at as some have really sad stories and were let down by the affirmative method. I think that’s one of the many areas where the gay and trans comparisons don’t work.

This entire thread exists from an OP that assumes we somehow owe, or should be deferential to people like Laverne Cox or Eliot Page. What makes them special that we need to rearrange society? They’re just people. Ordinary people with their own problems, just like others with other problems. I refuse to bow to their supposed specialness.

This entire thread exists from an OP that assumes we somehow owe, or should be deferential to people like Laverne Cox or Eliot Page. What makes them special that we need to rearrange society? They’re just people. Ordinary people with their own problems, just like others with other problems. I refuse to bow to their supposed specialness.

This.

Quote simple really. No penises in women only spaces.

I kind of get the impression that maybe the OP was expecting either that GC posters would respond by saying they hate trans people, or by 'denying trans people's existence' (which GC people are often falsely accused of doing), or that posters just wouldn’t have any reasonable, well thought-out suggestions.

Whereas (unsurprisingly), nobody has slung insults and everyone has been keen to say that trans people should be treated with respect and be allowed to do as they please (except wrt to single sex spaces and sports) as long as they are adults and not hurting anyone. This thread has been a bit of an own goal really.

No people-who-used-to-be-penis-havers either, please!

Yes it's racist and classist, and also deeply ageist - women over 50 are not human and should be neither seen nor heard.

It's happy to spend money and use resources as though both were limitless - just who is going to pay for all these extra loos and changing rooms and where are they going to go - have people any idea how hard it is to persuade developers to build even the bare legal minimum facilities?

And did someone back in the early part of the thread really say that Elliot Page 'passes' as a man?

The majority of women are not as physically strong as men. This is biology.

society prizes physical strength because it is something men have and many societies see men and their qualities as being better than women. This is sexism.

To ignore that and put women in situations where they are unsafe (eg locked in a cell with a man) or disadvantaged (eg in a sporting contest) because pretending that noticing differences in biology is sexist and calling it feminism is bullshit.

And did someone back in the early part of the thread really say that Elliot Page 'passes' as a man?

Surely not

If I was world uber-boss, I'd ban the carrying out of elective body modification procedures, from lip fillers and tattoos through nose jobs, fake breasts, and mastectomy to genital reconstruction on anyone under the age of 25.

Wait until their brains have developed before damaging their bodies.

I certainly don't think any of that should be available on the NHS.

Mental illness needs to be treated with psychologists not surgeons

Why should be worried if there aren't enough competitors in gender neutral sports events?
I'm more concerned that women can continue with their lives without men interfering.

"And why are you pretending to believe that these men are women when you're making it very clear that you believe male people's entitlements come before female people's basic equality and human rights? It's fantastically sexist in a very binary way, you know exactly which sex you think should have choice at the expense of the other sex's equality and humanity."

YES.
And there is NEVER an answer to this, never.
You just get "be kind", "reframe your trauma", "trans women are women", or some other feeble epithet that means nothing.

Women need to budge over, always.
Women are the support creatures, always.
Women need to make the concessions, always.
Women need to solve the problem, always.

A rape victim is told that her experience and fears do not matter, the needs of the special man is far more important.
An orthodox jewish woman and a muslim woman are told that their beliefs and religion are worthless, but the beliefs and "religion" of the special man is far more important.

Of course it is. And there might be the odd person who genuinely believes that women are as strong as men, but most of the time it's just TRA bullshit.

@loislovesstewie which is why we have female and open categories. Gender-neutral events aren't going to happen because they are a lot of additional organisation for no-one to show up. Organising 10 races at a typical meet in my sport is enough of a headache without adding a bunch more that will not actually attract any entries.

pff, obviously. a man's desire to not share spaces with men who don't share his gender identity has to trump a woman's desire to not share spaces with 'women' who don't share her biology, that has to be right.

I expect that you will not get your very on point questions answered.

yep

In my first post I referred to gender neutral anything, I wasn't specifying sports . So ; toilets, changing rooms etc. If I can have the 'ladies', men have 'men's' and those who Id as other have a gender neutral space along with those who don't mind being in there. That is OK by me. Women's sports are only for women, clearly.