Judgemental feminists are becoming tedious

[Mattersnot14]

I am a feminist. Absolutely dyed in the wool feminist. Have been called a TERF more times than I know, and have lost long time friends from speaking about protecting women’s rights. I do believe that many, perhaps most, women do not consciously realise just how oppressed women are. I spend a great deal of my time talking about, reading about and writing about women’s oppression and the challenges we face as a class. I say this really just to make it clear that I am absolutely feminist and absolutely supportive of feminism.

But it feels like a current of very judgemental feminism, judgemental feminists, is currently sweeping over the feminist movement. I don’t know if it’s just me and the groups I’m in, but I’m finding it draining and I wonder if anyone else is experiencing the same. I’m not sure how to describe it. It’s almost wrapping feminism into other philosophies until any joy or differences are entirely drained away, and only then can something be deemed truly feminist.

The Barbie film is a prime example. I have seen it and thoroughly enjoyed it. I think it’s great that a mainstream Hollywood film acknowledges and speaks of patriarchy, and that millions of women are seeing that film and discussing its message. Is it a perfect film? No. Will it single handedly end patriarchy? Of course not. But it has got women who otherwise rarely think about women’s oppression discussing it and acknowledging that there remains a huge problem for women.

But no. In my long term feminist groups, usually social media private groups, the film has been slammed, more often than not by women who have got seen it, purely because it’s a film about Barbie. When I raised my points, it then was slammed because Mattel are a problematic company, because of plastic, because it’s making money etc.

Similarly makeup and dresses. It’s endless comments about ‘fun feminists’ pandering to men by wearing makeup, using hair dye, wearing anything other than baggy shirts and unflattering trousers it seems.

It is wearing me down. Is anyone else finding this thread of uber pure, and actually very judgmental and very aggressive, feminists in their circles? Not all, of course, but much more noticeable than it feels like it has been previously. Just like nothing will ever be good enough for them unless it also comes with almost ultra left wing views (and I’m a Labour Party member so sympathetic to the left).

I don’t know, I’m just finding it depressing to see feminists aggressively attacking women for seeing a film, or being a member of a right wing political party, or wearing pink and dying their hair etc.

I find that there's a current culture of aggressively attacking and being judgmental of anything different to one's own view. Complete intolerance of middle ground or grey areas and an unwilliness to compromise.

It's definitely visible in the feminist movement OP, I see it. It's also visible in literally all other 'fractions' (for want of a better word) too.

Yes, that probably is the case. I wonder why aggression is so high at the moment. Maybe it always has been and we’re just noticing it more?

I agree and notice a divisive undertone. I came off Twitter in January because I felt that way and also saw myself over engaging and getting stressed. I see the divisive element as playing into the Patriarchy's hands and just avoid it now.

I think it can be just another form of identity politics in some ways.

If you don't think X, you're not a real feminist.
If you're not left-wing, you're not a real feminist.
If you have reservations about abortions up until birth, you're not a real feminist.
There are a million more seen on Twitter every day. It's a neverending purity spiral.

I can see why KJK refuses to refer to herself as a feminist.
It's easier to take yourself out of the box, not label yourself and just get on with the work that needs doing.

Any chance you could use your words and say something interesting, instead of spamming all the threads in this board with the same tedious mantra?

Yes. Absolutely this.
I agree though that it’s exhausting.

It's interesting. For 3+ decades as a feminist I've seen the ebb and flow of lib/rad and all the other add ons. In the end it is important to remember that feminism is for all women. The opposite of feminism isn't MRAs, it's ad hominim attacks.

I love the Barbie film too and said so on the thread and there was debate. Debate is great and I learn so much from other women. We are allowed to be angry and upset and loud and argumentative, We only lose when we become divisive.

So women who don't want to see the Barbie film or dress up should not express our opinions, in your opinion? I feel you are being the judgmental one.

It’s not just Barbie, that’s one example. It’s endlessly giving their opinion about everything - how other women dress, wear their hair and makeup, which politicians they support, which films they enjoy.

Anything different from what they themselves do is deemed not good enough feminism.

And it isn’t that they don’t want to see Barbie or dress up - it’s the active, aggressive renouncing of those who do as pretend feminists.

Not this.

What I see it as is this (for an example):

The patriarchy keeps women powerless at home as SAHMs.
Therefore being a SAHM is anti-feminist
Therefore SAHMs are bad feminists.

Vs

The patriarchy keeps women powerless at home as SAHMs.
Therefore feminists should empower SAHMs to be financially and socially powerful.
Therefore SAHMs are part of the sisterhood and good feminists if they wanted to be defined as such.

I'm seeing more of the first and less of the second. Ditto make-up, Barbie, clothes, motherhood, relationships and on and on. Disagree with the actions and the stereotypes and every other patriarchal bullshit. It's the framing of women who partake as bad feminists or even bad people that's the issue.

Yes! That is exactly it. Worded much better than I did.

@MrsTerryPratchett

You definitely have a point.

all groups have their fringe elements. and tbh more than the "let's hate all men brigade" (who are actually much fewer in number, although I am not basing that on anything beyond my own observations) - I find the I think taking all my clothes off is feminism eg. Kim kardashian.

at least the extreme feminists as you describe them have some level of intellectual endeavour. idiots constantly using the word feminism without any credibility I find really maddening- another example meghan. (with her feminist award lol)

*- I find the "taking all my clothes off is feminism" eg Kim kardashian extremely annoying and reductive.

I don’t like Barbie (and said so) and I do like dresses, but I agree OP that feminism is about centring women, and we’re not doing that if we’re being sanctimonious about other women’s choices.

But you did lose me when you complained that some feminists are “endlessly giving their opinion about everything”. Having opinions and sharing them unapologetically is absolutely what feminism is.

There are lots of opinions I disagree with on this board, and I sometimes find the way they are expressed to be too confrontational for me. When I feel that way, I step away for a bit. I’m glad this place exists, and I’m glad women get to share their opinions.

@Polik says
I find that there's a current culture of aggressively attacking and being judgmental of anything different to one's own view. Complete intolerance of middle ground or grey areas and an unwillingness to compromise.

This is the real heart of the Free Speech issue, They way of 'winning' by demolishing the other person/people rather than show a better way of dealing with the issue.

My mum says that in the seventies she felt alienated from her feminist friends when she got married and had children so I don’t think this is new. That said, I don’t particularly find this amongst my friends so you might just be unlucky! I’ve ended up with a very broad range of feminist friends (including both gender critical and trans inclusive feminists) and have always managed to have sensible conversations with all of them.

@Mattersnot14
I haven't seen the Barbie movie, so I can't comment on it-except to say I do think it's right for women to be wary of "feminism-lite" I don't know if that's an accurate characteristic of the film, but the fact that so many men are fans does give me pause! But-moving on. Something I have seen over many years is that has always been a tendency to take general principles as personal attacks. So "Women should think about the pressures society puts on them to dress and behave a certain way, and decide whether they want to conform" becomes "How dare you tell me I can't paint my nails- I'm not going to be a feminist any more." Reductionist, I know, but that's how it goes. There's also a tendency now to think feminism is finished because we have won a lot of battles-the ones that can be changed by laws. Societal change is lagging a long way behind legislative change. I think older feminists like me find this very frustrating-and it makes us fearful. Freedoms are hard won and easily lost. The attack on reproductive rights in the US shows this starkly. So maybe that's why, to come full circle, it's "The Barbie movie is so liberating!" "But what about the repeal of Roe v. Wade?" I don't know whether this makes any sense- happy to elaborate.

There are such people in all movements. Ignore.

Especially online there is this odd race to be the most miserable and critical dressed up in a cloak of moral purity. They can never just say “I thought Barbie was shit” but do a screed coming to the conclusion that anyone who DID enjoy Barbie is a coloniser and supremacist and intellectually lazy. Bore off.

@Backstreets as I said earlier, I haven't seen the Barbie movie. But, as with any movie, I'd be pissed off if anyone said "I think this movie is shit" without explaining why.

Funny about the Barbie, because personally all I’ve seen is that everyone who didn’t love it is either an incel or has internalized misogyny.

I do see the judgements, but from other side.

But op, some Feminists just do feministing a whole lot better than others. It must be really frustrating for them.

If they campaign for women to have a choice in whether they go to work or stay at home for a few years with the kids, it is really bad form to actually exercise that choice.
Remember; we are faulty men who are burdened with childbearing and birth - one of the most inconsequential things ever for the human race.
Why - there’s hardly ANY money to be made of it, bar commercial surrogacy, and so it has no worth whatsoever.

Also, if you like make up/hair dye/pink clothes you are only doing it for the men - regardless of your sexual orientation. You just don’t understand it yourself, what with your tiny ladybrain which is incapable of comprehending any of this - hence the proper Feminists get a bit frustrated with you. I think that is only fair. Like they are the grown ups, frustrated at the other child-women not getting it.
They are doing this for your own good …