Judgemental feminists are becoming tedious

[Mattersnot14]

I am a feminist. Absolutely dyed in the wool feminist. Have been called a TERF more times than I know, and have lost long time friends from speaking about protecting women’s rights. I do believe that many, perhaps most, women do not consciously realise just how oppressed women are. I spend a great deal of my time talking about, reading about and writing about women’s oppression and the challenges we face as a class. I say this really just to make it clear that I am absolutely feminist and absolutely supportive of feminism.

But it feels like a current of very judgemental feminism, judgemental feminists, is currently sweeping over the feminist movement. I don’t know if it’s just me and the groups I’m in, but I’m finding it draining and I wonder if anyone else is experiencing the same. I’m not sure how to describe it. It’s almost wrapping feminism into other philosophies until any joy or differences are entirely drained away, and only then can something be deemed truly feminist.

The Barbie film is a prime example. I have seen it and thoroughly enjoyed it. I think it’s great that a mainstream Hollywood film acknowledges and speaks of patriarchy, and that millions of women are seeing that film and discussing its message. Is it a perfect film? No. Will it single handedly end patriarchy? Of course not. But it has got women who otherwise rarely think about women’s oppression discussing it and acknowledging that there remains a huge problem for women.

But no. In my long term feminist groups, usually social media private groups, the film has been slammed, more often than not by women who have got seen it, purely because it’s a film about Barbie. When I raised my points, it then was slammed because Mattel are a problematic company, because of plastic, because it’s making money etc.

Similarly makeup and dresses. It’s endless comments about ‘fun feminists’ pandering to men by wearing makeup, using hair dye, wearing anything other than baggy shirts and unflattering trousers it seems.

It is wearing me down. Is anyone else finding this thread of uber pure, and actually very judgmental and very aggressive, feminists in their circles? Not all, of course, but much more noticeable than it feels like it has been previously. Just like nothing will ever be good enough for them unless it also comes with almost ultra left wing views (and I’m a Labour Party member so sympathetic to the left).

I don’t know, I’m just finding it depressing to see feminists aggressively attacking women for seeing a film, or being a member of a right wing political party, or wearing pink and dying their hair etc.

I think you're grappling with a level of authoritarianism in your groups OP, which could be seen as a purity spiral?

To me that's the issue. It's hypocritical to shut down discussion and ideas. That's the KEY message behind everything JKR has spoken out about and women have had to deal with.

I can come at the movie from a range of approaches; from an artistic pov (the travel scenes were all handmade, the set designs etc), a popular culture pov, and others.

From a feminist pov, barbie is here and how do we reach those girls who are fully signed up members?

I want to see it for the whole package. I'll probably end up seeing it on TV as I'd rather go surfing

You also can't critique something without seeing it.

I've been more bothered about the aggressive marketing campaign in schools, with free barbies. And the plastic thing always bothers me more than anything else.

But I also wear a lot of spf, make up and have too many clothes. (I try to make sure they're all biodegradable and make up has recyclable containers) I've gone totally au naturel with hair as I cba. Pile it up and go.

Actually, Lego friends is long overdue a good feminist analysis. The magazine rather pissed me off recently. (My son quite likes it for the Lego kittens)

This is a massive spoiler; a speech made by a character in the film for anyone who hasn't seen it: "You're supposed to be...."

It's a comment on how women are judged NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO.

So it's pretty ironic that feminists are telling women how to think about a film that has a message about not doing that.

https://youtube.com/shorts/K4UkvoliuzI?feature=share

I don't think it's going to load but you get the idea.

I haven't seen the Barbie movie, so I can't comment on it-except to say I do think it's right for women to be wary of "feminism-lite"

I'd argue that it's not feminism lite, but instead, it's entry-level feminism. And it's pretty clever if you think about it like that.

It's also worth saying that almost no girls will see any other film this year decade which not only passes the Bechdel test but mentions the patriarchy several times. That is revolutionary in its way.

And yes, the people who seem to dislike it (after seeing it) are the Piers Morgans of this world. Not me and my feminist 12 yo.

I mean, come one, it's been a decade since the London Feminist Conference got cancelled over the trans debate.

Whenever feminists call each other names and tear ourselves apart over an issue, instead of affirming our common ground and collaborating, the patriarchy wins.

My position is that no human is perfect. We are all "problematic". We are all learning and making mistakes as we go.

Either feminists lean in to our diversity and collaborate as a broad-church coalition of normal, imperfect women; or ultimately, we will fail.

But that's just my HO. :)

@MrsTerryPratchett "I'd argue that it's not feminism lite, but instead, it's entry-level feminism. And it's pretty clever if you think about it like that."

Fair enough. As I said, I haven't seen it. I trust your judgement.

I think this is online behaviour in general. I have been in online communities for ages and many of them have gone like this tbh - just looking for things to criticise above everything else.

It's not really recent but has been increasing over the last 5 or so years. Plus with younger people being online from earlier ages, they think this is just how you "discuss" and how you always have.
I think Twitter accelerated it imo - having to make a short soundbite point rather than having a nuanced view.

Whenever feminists call each other names and tear ourselves apart over an issue, instead of affirming our common ground and collaborating, the patriarchy wins.

From what I've been told, a large part of the film is exactly about this, replace "feminists" with "women."

The only "issue" detail here is that dr barbie is played by a male. But that would fly over the heads of most of the girls watching it.

Absolutely this!

This is a very old problem and certainly was around in the second wave. I am not quite sure of the reason why debate (which is good) so easily drifts into something like finger-pointing and holier-than-though type of feminism (I have seen this a lot), but here are some very fledgling ideas about that (and there are probably better ones):

In feminism we are debating something very central and basic to our lives, not something which only affects us in more external roles (say, as consumers of one product or as tax payers or in our occupation as a member of one group of workers).

Feminism is ultimately about how societies frame and guide and block or enable the various choices or life paths being female implies, and so it is always going to be about what it means if we turned right or left at some point in our journey or if we made a U-turn and so on.

Those choices are both intensely private and yet also influenced by the society in which we live. Feminism should, in my opinion, point out the way societies influence those choices (easy to see in other countries and cultures, the most extreme example today being Afghanistan, but harder to see in our own lives).

To give a trivial example of that, few people actually choose how they dress etc. in some entirely unrestricted sense, though many of us, including myself, like to think we do.

For one thing, which fabrics and styles have been available has changed over history (Victorian women didn't wear t-shirts and jeans in public), and unspoken rules or legal restrictions always matter, too (bikinis are not allowed for swimming everywhere etc.).

Then there's what our dress is supposed to tell about us (even if we wish to avoid signaling anything), and societies do load women's dress with much more moral and gendered significance than they do with men's dress (though men's dress is strictly policed in a different way: not allowing diversity).

So in my view feminism should not criticise a woman who chooses to dress in ways which the male power system approves of (which can range from total veiling to strong pressure to wear something revealing, depending on the place and the time), but to make all of us aware of the frameworks for choice we actually have. It's also true that not all our choices need to be feminist, but that if a woman chooses something this does not necessarily make that choice a feminist one.

That is a more trivial example, but similar ones apply to many of the choices (about work and child-care, about leadership roles, about why certain jobs remain male-dominated (and more highly compensated) and others female-dominated (and less well compensated).)

It's an interplay between choices and constraints, and the only choices which matter are not just ours.

I also think, based on my own experience, that women in political contexts have more trouble than men do with the idea of pragmatic and temporary coalitions for the reaching of one single political goal. Such coalitions are common in male-dominated politics, though I do see why this is much harder for women unless the potential coalition candidates are picked only from the different threads of feminism.

That is because no political side really runs on the idea of men being lesser in all sorts of ways while several political parties in various countries do regard women's concerns and rights as less important. So temporary coalitions for feminist women too often would require supping with one devil or the other.

I agree very much with you @nepeta. Both regarding clothing choices and the political/personal. Dresses with pockets, anyone?

An example of political decisions hugely affecting personal choices is very clear in those countries where childcare is so expensive. For instance the UK. How often don’t we see on here that in a couple the man assumes that childcare costs should come entirely out of the women’s wages?

When I had my first in the UK 20 yrs ago I had 2 massive shocks to my system. (Well, more than 2, but let’s not go overboard. I am not British and have since moved back home.)

1. Childcare was insanely expensive and needed after only 6 months.
2. The father of my child surprised me completely by thinking that childcare cost was not a shared cost.

The result was the opposite of freedom and independence, especially since I was unlucky in my choice of man to have a family with.

Some feminists still seem to think that «nothing» separates the sexes. Or that nothing should. That is a mindbogglingly naive and dangerous way to think.

There’s plenty of situations where sex is irrelevant, or should be, in our society. But there are certain situations where it is the most important thing.
(Helen Joyce articulates this much better!)

It seems to me those women who want to claim a monopoly on feminism often are amongst those thinking in that naive way.
Ironically, I have on occasion been called naive from such quarters. I don’t mind, it is just silly because it is trying to make me feel stupid.

And they are clever, for sure. But I still find that bit naive. As if you can bend reality to your wishful thinking.

Sorry, it is just not happening, and if we take a Peek at the real world it is abundantly clear that it is the sex you are that determines how you Get to lead your life.

I think this is maybe the differentiation:

There are all kinds of debates within feminism, where people on either side are working from the position o what is good for women in society and as individuals. Some of these are pretty fundamental. Some less so.

But there is a tendency, and I don't think it's new in feminism, to claim those on the other side of any particular issue are "not feminist," are not working from concern about women, and are "throwing women under the bus." They must be haindmaidens, or fools.

It should be possible to differ about something like the Barbie movie without it meaning a person does not care about women. And actually, it should be possible to differ on what economic policies are best for people overall, whether women should through social structures be supported to stay home with kids or encouraged to put them in care and work, which party will do most for women, and even things like the role of marriage or regulation of abortion.

It's like telling someone like Glen Loury he must be a racist because he doesn't always vote Democrat.

People who criticise the Barbie film probably haven’t seen it. It’s warm and funny and addresses feminist criticisms of the dolls. It even offers some original solutions to empower women and Mattel took a risk allowing themselves to be ridiculed, which makes me think that they genuinely want to address the part they played in causing body image problems, etc, ( - as well as losing the toxic image they have, which puts people off buying toys for girls of course).

I don’t know if the judgemental thing in feminism has increased, but there’s always been this side of, I suppose the word I’m thinking of - idealistic people. Vegans, feminists, lefties, environmentalists. Being in such people’s company always involved tedious lectures, depressing conversation topics, fear of rebuke, fear of ignorance being exposed, etc. I know when I was younger I definitely brought bad tidings with me.

What I have really loved about the mumsnet feminist/gender critical feminist thing that has grown in the last decade, is that it has been forced to become a non-judgmental and pragmatic feminism, because of all the different people from different backgrounds with different perspectives. Everyone has needed to put differences to one side because we needed to pull together. I don’t think I could face returning to that prickly world of idealism again.

Definitely this.

I think a lot of this is due to much of political activism seeming to be more about imposing a point of view than about actually achieving practical things.

I completely agree with you.

This board for example is a prime example. Women attacking other women for their views which are challenging to others

I use to enjoy the discussion on here but I have been personally attacked by "feminists" who want to shut down another woman as their views aren't in alignment. It's utterly toxic and I rarely now contribute

As someone has suggested, social media amplifies disagreements, and twitter brings out the worst in people.

Personally, I don't ise the word feminist to describe myself anymore. I'm simply a woman with an interest in women's issues. To my mind it has become associated with the same sort of identity based 'intersectionalist' hierachies of oppression ( patriarchy) as all the others identitry labels.

I'm probably older than you - but I too reject Barbie because when I was a younger woman/teenager it was associated not only with repressive stereotypes, but with plastic american consumer culture - and most feminist were left wing and rejecting of such things. I still instinctively reject anything too plastic or manufactured.

It seems to me one generation doesn't seem to learn from the previous generation; and each new crop of young people has to go through the same sort of learning curves as those that came before them. I do think that capitalism of the american consumer culture brand now has an almost total hegemony. It is all about 'indvidualistic freedom and choice, and about personal expression. To older generations of women/feminist, that can be quite alien.

I do watch some American films ( I love road movies in particular) but generally prefer European/Iranian/Turkish/'foreign' films.

American cultural products are so omnipresent and like many people I've always tended to resist, as much as possible, the domination of culture by those products.

Regarding films with feminist message that would be good for anyone looking for such a film for their daughter/granddaughter/neice I can recommend two.

Firstly, 'Whale Rider' a New Zealand film about a young Maori girl who struggles with the restrictive social expectations around her sex and finally comes to lead her tribe.

Secondly, 'Corpo Celeste' an Italian film about a young girl ( age 12) who moves from Switzerland to Calabria and has to negotiate the heavily catholicised and traditional culture she experineces there, in order to find herself.

Both 'coming of age' films and both by female directors ( like Barbie)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_Rider

I agree, it's just another form of control as well, just from other women instead of men and society. It's tedious and switches a lot of women off.

I think some women like to feel superior it helps their self esteem to berate another woman for getting their frocks on and feeling "pretty" or liking "girly" things its like they have gone full circle and saying that being "masculine "Is better. I regard myself a fully fledged feminist I also thought Barbie was a hoot I loved every minute of it.

Yes I think this is what I was trying to say.

I agree with other posters that this is an old problem. When I became interested in feminism in the late 70s , in my teens, there were factions. I thought radical feminists then meant rejecting of men completely, which is why 'Terf' confuses me. I remember debates like:Greenham common when boys over 10 not allowed to stay, a women only camp bit at Glastonbury, not wearing make up , lesbianism as a political choice, being anti marriage etc, it was very earnest. I read 'Spare Rib' dutifully and felt guilty enjoying the 'lighter' bits, eg there was a column on writers bedrooms which was stopped as being 'too trivial'. I thought we were going to change the world.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not sure that "feeling superior has much to do with being analytical about the social, and gendered, messges that girls are subjected to; not just in the clothing choices and fashions they are presented with, but also in the types of entertainment, toys, cultural products they are encouraged to consume.

So much now is wrapped up in the language of 'choice' and 'individual free will' - but what I was trying to explain above, was about how so much of that is rooted in american ( especially) consumer culture; and that the women's movement in the 1970's, for example - tended to be rejecting of that type of consumerism. Many of the women's groups took a more wholistic/eco/Green approach to things. More natural materials, simpler lifestyles, vegetarianism etc.

So much of the early feminism was lesbian feminism....and could often veer into separatism.

You want women who disagree with you to talk less?

You want women to not argue about feminism?

Feminism IS an argument.