Judgemental feminists are becoming tedious

[Mattersnot14]

I am a feminist. Absolutely dyed in the wool feminist. Have been called a TERF more times than I know, and have lost long time friends from speaking about protecting women’s rights. I do believe that many, perhaps most, women do not consciously realise just how oppressed women are. I spend a great deal of my time talking about, reading about and writing about women’s oppression and the challenges we face as a class. I say this really just to make it clear that I am absolutely feminist and absolutely supportive of feminism.

But it feels like a current of very judgemental feminism, judgemental feminists, is currently sweeping over the feminist movement. I don’t know if it’s just me and the groups I’m in, but I’m finding it draining and I wonder if anyone else is experiencing the same. I’m not sure how to describe it. It’s almost wrapping feminism into other philosophies until any joy or differences are entirely drained away, and only then can something be deemed truly feminist.

The Barbie film is a prime example. I have seen it and thoroughly enjoyed it. I think it’s great that a mainstream Hollywood film acknowledges and speaks of patriarchy, and that millions of women are seeing that film and discussing its message. Is it a perfect film? No. Will it single handedly end patriarchy? Of course not. But it has got women who otherwise rarely think about women’s oppression discussing it and acknowledging that there remains a huge problem for women.

But no. In my long term feminist groups, usually social media private groups, the film has been slammed, more often than not by women who have got seen it, purely because it’s a film about Barbie. When I raised my points, it then was slammed because Mattel are a problematic company, because of plastic, because it’s making money etc.

Similarly makeup and dresses. It’s endless comments about ‘fun feminists’ pandering to men by wearing makeup, using hair dye, wearing anything other than baggy shirts and unflattering trousers it seems.

It is wearing me down. Is anyone else finding this thread of uber pure, and actually very judgmental and very aggressive, feminists in their circles? Not all, of course, but much more noticeable than it feels like it has been previously. Just like nothing will ever be good enough for them unless it also comes with almost ultra left wing views (and I’m a Labour Party member so sympathetic to the left).

I don’t know, I’m just finding it depressing to see feminists aggressively attacking women for seeing a film, or being a member of a right wing political party, or wearing pink and dying their hair etc.

Arguing about an issue within the context of what is good for women is one thing.

Telling the other women in the discussion that their views are illegitimate because they aren't feminist, according to person A, is not. It's arguing in a circle for one thing, and it's also ass-hat behaviour.

But apart from that, I think maybe part of the OPs complaint is that it seems to want to snuff out things that are just lighthearted or fun, or not serious enough. Or normal desire to be attractive to the opposite sex, or flirting, etc. It seems to think, people who like those things sometimes aren't serious enough, are silly, whatever. It's very dismissive.

I haven’t watched the film yet, I had no desire to until I heard the good, bad and ugly about it. Part of me wonders whether that was what Mattel wanted? Controversy and debate so that the disinterested like me would end up watching it? The films purpose is to make profit. It isn’t to raise awareness of feminism and so on.

I don't mean to be superior, but I genuinely don't get all of the hype around this Barbie film, nor what the precise appeal of it is? I get that it is directed by a woman who has directed similar 'women's movies' ( Ladybird etc). I think for me the turn off is that it is just so American, plus I've never been interested in or liked Barbie.

That doesn't mean I don't like to wear what I consider to be nice or flattering clothes or to get my hair nicely highlighted, though.

Not really sure about these comment.
Around this topic/Barbie the most common commentery has been women can wear make-up, and that women who don’t, aren’t taking care of themselves, are frumpy and ugly. Said by self-proclaimed feminists.
On top of that that’s what society wants women to do.
Same as dating men, shagging them, having kids, staying pretty.
Like why would women who does this, need extra support or ”you go girl”, isin’t society acceptance enough?

I guess so much depends on what someone means when they say they are 'a feminist'. What is feminism to them. Does it simply mean doing, wearing, behaving how you want to, and equal pay?

The deeper question might be along the lines of what shapes what you (think) you want - and what are the inevitable consequences of those choices.

I think it's more complicated than that. Mattel want to get people to watch the film and course correct the brand. And a great deal of the hype is marketing. It's soaked in hypocrisy.

But that doesn't stop it being a film with masses of strong women in it (and making it). DD and I stayed until the end and even the credits had notably more female names than typical. A film about the patriarchy, about feminism and the fight for liberation from oppression. A film with a strong mother/daughter/friend theme. It probably passes the reverse Bechdel but only just. How many films this year can you say that about? Let alone mass marketed to children.

Jaws isn't about a shark. Barbie isn't about a doll.

For me, one of the big issues, both then and now is the idea that if a woman does something it makes it a feminist thing. I think it's all about awareness. (I belong to the consciousness raising generation!) It's not all about choice-although of course women having choices is important. It's about knowing that a choice you intend to make is an anti feminist one. If you do that, it doesn't mean you're not a feminist any more. It means that you have consciously, on this occasion, decided to make a non-feminist choice.

Yes, lots of "strong women" but it is still a Hollywood product. American consumerist feminism. Not sure what the Bechdel test is?

Personally would rather watch some of the European/ foreign female directed films I've mentioned above. In fact, I've just finished re-watching Corpo Celeste ( mentioned above). I love it!

Fuck me. I need that copied and pasted on every thread I see a sahm is "part of the problem"

And it grates on me no end that I "clearly wear make up for men" as if there could be no other conceivable reason I might want my damn hayfever eye bags to look less purple and wrinkly. It's for men. Obvs.

This is perfectly put. I am also loudly Barbie Critical. Of the film and the products! My experience is that some feminists take criticism of the film as criticism of them as feminists, if they liked it. When I criticise the film and say Ferrera's speech, for instance, isn't feminist, it is not an attack on people who think it is. It's intellectual disagreement not personal criticism, and I think those things can be conflated.

Tell us about Ferrara's speech.......

Make up puzzles me though.
It ranges from women wearing full «pancake» and not being able to leave the house without «their face» on, which is something I just cannot understand.
To women putting on mascara for special occasions, which is where I’m at.
I don’t judge others for wearing full pancake, they own their faces and can do what they like. But it is very expensive, and unnecessary, as everyone I have ever seen with such an amount of make up on looks much Nicer to my eyes without it.

So it puzzles me.

Also, I always end up with panda-eyes from rubbing my eyes.

@RebelliousCow Goodness, I've disagreed so vehemently about it that I am almost tired of repeating myself. The sinister repetition of 'have to', programming the girls that see it to believe being thin enough is something they 'have to' worry about. The whole speech being about being worried about appearances, being intensely self obsessed and insecure. But I am of an older generation, exposed to feminism since childhood and see pretty, pink, insecure feminism as bending over for the patriarchy. If you are a feminist and believe this approach is feminist I disagree loudly, but I don't dismiss you as a feminist.

I haven't see the film, and have no intention of seeing it. I wasn't aware of the speech you were referring to...I now take it that it was in the film, and that you have therefore seen the film?

And who is Ferrara?

@RebelliousCow No, I can't spend my money there. Mattel has various practises I strongly disagree with, plus I believe the film is actually insidious and sinister. I've seen clips and focused my attention on analysing the content of the speech.

I really enjoy make up, not even for how it looks as much as I enjoy the process and I'm a creative person and enjoy changing up my look. I don't bother that much anymore though, I have far more make up free days than make up ones! I did my own make up for my wedding which people were horrified about, but I was like I know my face and what suits me better than anyone else 🤣

I think the current very heavy make up, bronzer and lashes feels like a trend that will pass, like questionable phases of the past. Whilst it's naieve to suggest that some women don't wear make up as they're insecure in how they look or feel that they should, I do think most are pretty chill about it now especially since the pandemic. I have several friends who would happily spend hours getting ready for a night out but don't wear make up everyday, and others who dont wear much but won't leave the house without mascara- very individual I think.

@RebelliousCow Ferrera (sp? in a hurry!) is the actress who delivers a speech which has been widely shared and called feminist. I think the full speech is posted on AIBU if you wanted to read it?

I think that there is a view that unless you agree with all the feminist views you can't possibly be a feminist - I think that there has been a group that have always though that but it now grown so more people have this view.
I have strong anti abortion views and I know that when I voice these if asked or if it is being debated I am told I can't possibly be a feminist. I think we have lost the ability to agree to disagree.

Anti-abortion for you, anti-abortion morally, or wanting to ban abortion for others?

Because I think the first doesn't matter, the second is a choice and fully supported by championing women's rights (because that results in fewer abortions, the last is questionable. Mostly because it doesn't reduce the number of abortions but does hurt and kill women and girls. Something that hurts and kills women and girls surely can't be feminist.

I was using this as an example of how it is possible for feminist to hold different views. My view is that I don't agree with abortion at all but pragmatically I appreciate the law exists - I would like the limit to be as low as possible as I accept it would be impossible to prohibit. I accept my view is a minority one but I would describe myself as a feminist - my point is there are varied opinions.

" have strong anti abortion views and I know that when I voice these if asked or if it is being debated I am told I can't possibly be a feminist."

If you are opposed to women not having control over their own reproductive health, then no, you are not a feminist.

I think though we could also say - so what if it's for men?

Many people have an interest in members of the sex they are romantically interested in finding them attractive. And they themselves want to have sexual or romantic relations with men who seem attractive.

Most people would probably agree that it is possible for beauty standards to be problematic - too dangerous, or expensive, or time consuming. Or public images to create a bar no one can meet.

But the idea that men and women might not have entirely the same qualities seen as desirable seems pretty much to be expected, it's rather the point really.

I'm in a similar place with my own preferences with makeup.

But I think quite a lot of men aren't keen on the pancake look either. In fact I kind of think it may be fewer men than women who are into it.

I'm not convinced that for woman who adopt that look, it is mainly about appealing to men.

As I have said people will not agree on everything and that there will be varied views - that doesn't mean someone isn't a feminist as there is broad spectrum of opinion. The OPs point about people being not allowed to have different views and being shouted down is I fear the current reality