Judgemental feminists are becoming tedious

[Mattersnot14]

I am a feminist. Absolutely dyed in the wool feminist. Have been called a TERF more times than I know, and have lost long time friends from speaking about protecting women’s rights. I do believe that many, perhaps most, women do not consciously realise just how oppressed women are. I spend a great deal of my time talking about, reading about and writing about women’s oppression and the challenges we face as a class. I say this really just to make it clear that I am absolutely feminist and absolutely supportive of feminism.

But it feels like a current of very judgemental feminism, judgemental feminists, is currently sweeping over the feminist movement. I don’t know if it’s just me and the groups I’m in, but I’m finding it draining and I wonder if anyone else is experiencing the same. I’m not sure how to describe it. It’s almost wrapping feminism into other philosophies until any joy or differences are entirely drained away, and only then can something be deemed truly feminist.

The Barbie film is a prime example. I have seen it and thoroughly enjoyed it. I think it’s great that a mainstream Hollywood film acknowledges and speaks of patriarchy, and that millions of women are seeing that film and discussing its message. Is it a perfect film? No. Will it single handedly end patriarchy? Of course not. But it has got women who otherwise rarely think about women’s oppression discussing it and acknowledging that there remains a huge problem for women.

But no. In my long term feminist groups, usually social media private groups, the film has been slammed, more often than not by women who have got seen it, purely because it’s a film about Barbie. When I raised my points, it then was slammed because Mattel are a problematic company, because of plastic, because it’s making money etc.

Similarly makeup and dresses. It’s endless comments about ‘fun feminists’ pandering to men by wearing makeup, using hair dye, wearing anything other than baggy shirts and unflattering trousers it seems.

It is wearing me down. Is anyone else finding this thread of uber pure, and actually very judgmental and very aggressive, feminists in their circles? Not all, of course, but much more noticeable than it feels like it has been previously. Just like nothing will ever be good enough for them unless it also comes with almost ultra left wing views (and I’m a Labour Party member so sympathetic to the left).

I don’t know, I’m just finding it depressing to see feminists aggressively attacking women for seeing a film, or being a member of a right wing political party, or wearing pink and dying their hair etc.

Feminists pissed off with other feminists?

It's been happening since the year dot.

@twelly "The OPs point about people being not allowed to have different views and being shouted down is I fear the current reality"

You are absolutely allowed to have different views. You can't, however, want to restrict other women's freedoms and call yourself a feminist.

@SerafinasGoose "Feminists pissed off with other feminists?

It's been happening since the year dot."

Of course it has. Women don't have to agree with each other!

Feminists are allowed to make anti feminist choices for themselves. What they can't do and remain feminists is impose them on other women.

The term feminist is a wide - it is a matter of opinion and you are entitled to your view

I'm not convinced that maximizing individual freedom is necessarily what makes for the best society for women, or anyone else.

Very frequently enabling one kind of choice restricts another, or enabling choices for one restricts them for another.

These trade offs are a huge part of any discussion around what is best for people in society.

@Rudderneck
"I'm not convinced that maximizing individual freedom is necessarily what makes for the best society for women, or anyone else."

Obviously, choices have to be made within society's agreed laws.

Yes, perhaps the pandemic did change the make up thing.

I do love make up, but more on the (very) theatrical side 😁

No @Rudderneck I didnt mean that it is only to appeal to men. Not for all anyway. It is something deeper about how some of them need to hide their faces. It is wearing a mask for protection almost.
Sorry, I am bad at articulating it.
And to reiterate, it is not to hint that women are feminist or not depending on the amount of make up they wear!

Re the abortion debate, in being shut down @twelly proves the point that dissent isn't allowed.
I am not anti abortion. They are necessary sometimes, but I don't think they should be used as a form of contraception and I don't believe a woman's autonomy should extend right up to the due date - that's murdering a baby as far as I'm concerned. But there are feminists who would tell me I'm not a feminist for having this view. Who put them in charge?

It's the same for the sahm debate. I've been told it's not a feminist choice and that it hurts other women. You don't see men being told to put their personal lives aside and act in what some random bloke thinks is best for men as a whole. I'm not up for swapping one system of control for another.
Besides, I don't see sah as anti feminist - my view on it is that women are getting lumbered with full time work and primary responsibility for children and home and are getting screwed over in the workplace because no one can serve two masters without losing something (usually whatever they want purely for themselves). So I've taken a decision to opt out - dh can climb the slippery pole and I'm going to be with my kids and enjoy my leisure time and not be knackered from trying to be all things to all people. What I'd like is legal protection for women who have been materially disadvantaged while their male partner gained. This strikes me as a better sim of feminism than attacking women who choose a different life.

I enjoyed the film - it's a good way to gently introduce the notion of societal inequality to young people who aren't thinking about it. My dd is usually buried in TikTok and doesn't think about politics at all as far as I can make out. It was good for her and hopefully something sinks in and comes back to her later! My problem with the film is that it couldn't have been made without Mattel and there's a conflict of interest here. Mattel just wants to make money and it feels manipulative - selling feminism to women to make money which props up the capitalist society which harms us. I'm sure Greta Gerwig thought all this through though and concluded that the message was worth the risk.
But otoh I also don't think all choices are feminist ones (Porn, extensive unnecessary cosmetic surgery, Kardashian culture).

The problem with our society is that it's so divided and so intolerant - it's either 'do life the way current left wing nutters decree is acceptable or get cancelled'. But our alternative is the Tories, who don't serve women any better than Labour do. Although they are slightly less annoying because they aren't so preachy.

Few people in the public eye have the balls to put their heads above the parapet and even fewer are so rich they can't get cancelled (I bet the TRA are incensed by the existence of JKR).
But identify politics and purity spirals are the snake which eats itself. No one can be pure enough! Hopefully this shit will come to an end soon as McCarthyism did.

I think we gave got really bad from separating the view from the person. Particularly on the online space.

Do let's take real life. My dad voted for brexit. He pamphleted for brexit before the vote. Do I occasionally mumble passive aggressive comments? Yes. Otherwise Do we have a functional relationship. Yes.

If I went on the online space and saw someone proudly supporting brexit, I would think 'twat' and totally discount their other views. The online workforce doesn't do 'nuance' and we are all worse off for it.

Exactly.

It might help to use the word 'feminist' as a verb rather than a noun.

I guess so much depends on what someone means when they say they are 'a feminist'. What is feminism to them.Does it simply mean doing, wearing, behaving how you want to, and equal pay?
I agree with this.
A lot comes down to what people mean when they talk about feminism.

To me feminism is about challenging the systems that keep women in a the weaker position and oppresses them, and the same systems that promote men as the dominant class.

Feminism means being willing to be uncomfortable and consider that some of my own choices will have been influenced by sexist socialisation.

Having been a fully signed up member of the "be kind", everything is empowering, liberal branch of feminism, I'm glad I was open minded enough to realise that when other feminists questioned beauty standards, they weren't having a go at me as an individual for wearing make up.

I think some branches of feminism are harmful to women because they sound nice and fluffy, but they entrench the same shit in a different way. For example male gaze expectations of women's bodies are still promoted by Hollywood, beauty companies, fashion companies, influencers, celebrities etc, just now it's rebranded as empowement. The feel-good superficial individualistic feminism gets stuck at the point of saying "women shouldn't feel pressure to be pretty" then in the same breath turn on anyone who questions the beauty standards saying "what's it to you if another woman has Botox/shaves their legs/has false nails. You're so anti women, call yourselves feminists". It shows they're incapable of thinking about issues beyond themselves and their individual decisions.

Yes, that or 'feminisms' in the plural. Whichever way you cut it, some of the conflicting schools of feminism have been some of the most diametrically opposed and bitterly contested political ground of the twentieth century.

And gods know how we've ended up here, in the 21st century, apparently having backtracked on most of our progress since the first wave. In a good few respects, some of the principles of the third wave haven't helped particularly, but I question whether what we are seeing now is a case of 'to every action is an equal and opposite reaction'.

Women made progress and some strides toward equality, but we'd been warned. Germaine Greer pointed out that women will never understand how much men hate them. They hated 'women's lib', and 'feminist' became a dirty word in some of the centre-right media. Younger generations disclaimed feminism: it was what their mothers did, or had achieved its objectives (ha!) and was thought no longer necessary.

Hence we ended up ... here. And this being the patriarchy, it's less a case of an 'equal and opposite reaction' in pushback against women's rights, but a full scale avalanche that's completely disproportionate.

Perhaps there will be a hundred-years battle each time our rights suffer a signifiant setback. A century ago it was a fight for citizenship, a vote, and our own property.

Now, it's a push against MRAs/Incels and a belief that we are support vessels for male sexual needs, servitude and validation.

The Pankhursts must be turning in their graves.

Think this sums it up really (: People struggle to accept beliefs that they don't hold and think anyone disagreeing is a personal attack. We also can't experience other people's lived experience so it makes it hard to understand where others are coming from if we don't make active effort to try to see the other side

For reference, I'm extremely pro trans but I've been on both sides of the debate so I see everyone's perspective. I can see and understand GC's fears of being a woman in this world/being forgotten about etc just as I can see and understand trans joy/trans trauma/pain - essentially I see it as two sides with very little actual power held by either projecting their trauma/pain onto each other. Same goes for the more extreme RFs who are complaining about Barbie and women wearing makeup, there's probably a subsection who felt like they've done their time and committed themselves to the cause, gone through the struggles of living in society as an openly feminist woman etc and almost want others to share the pain, like I do get it

Idk, I'm just at the stage where no matter what you do someone is going to think you're doing something wrong, literally do what you want and go off sis :D

So wide that it is meaningless. I think lots of people now adopt it purely as a kind of identity label.

Quite! As I suggested earlier I think for many women being a 'feminist' simply means being 'empowered' to do whatever it is you think you want to do - not much analysing of anything beyond that.

Even before the current controversy around Lizzo - I think her whole stage persona represents that kind of 'feminism'. Still getting the. 'booty' out, wearing minimal clothing, sexualised performances...and so on.

I haven't seen any criticism of makeup or flattering clothing but I don't join in any conversation around consent and victim blaming any more as this to me has completely jumped the shark and leads to endless whataboutery.

'that poor family losing their beautiful daughter to male violence' -

'oh so if she was ugly she deserves murder?'

'women should be able to walk home from work in safety' -

'oh so if you don't have a job and you're out because you feel like it you deserve attack?'

Blah blah blah on and on it goes. The endless race to the bottom.

I can see and understand GC's fears of being a woman in this world/being forgotten about etc just as I can see and understand trans joy/trans trauma/pain - essentially I see it as two sides with very little actual power held by either projecting their trauma/pain onto each other.

And I view this as infuriatingly patronising as well as wildly inaccurate, on so many levels it's difficult to emumerate them all. However, I'll attempt it.

Women's concerns are not about being 'forgotten' about - but a wholesale, aggressive attempt at erasing the language we use to define ourselves and make it easier to launch a full-scale assault on our rights.

I do not accept being referred to as 'cis'. 'Cis' carries the assumption that I in some way 'identify' with the arbitrary gender stereotypes imposed upon me by virtue of my sex. Those stereotypes have been the instrument of my oppression. I do not, in any way, 'identity' with that.

I am not a subcategory of women. And I'm sure as hell not a 'bleeder', or reducible to set of primary or secondary sexual organs. That whole offensive noise can get to fuck.

I have no intention of allowing my use of language to be policed, or to have terms imposed upon me.

As to the implied mutual attacks between two sides, check out which side of this debate is consistently threatening the other with death, rape or harm. I guarantee you will find overwhelming evidence of this being a one-sided assault: the responses in kind from the other side have been so vanishingly rare I could quote you specific examples. From the TRA side it's a tsunami.

WOMEN are the ones being inched out of our sports, out of our spaces, who are being cancelled and losing our livelihoods. NOT men. And (surprise!) male spaces and male terminologies are remaining attacked whilst women's are under constant revision and erasure.

And as for 'projecting their pain and trauma', this grossly offensive phrase comes concerningly close to the accusation of 'weaponizing your trauma'. It's the phrase TRAs routintely use to silence victims of sexual assault whose trauma is, indeed, a viable reason as to their unwillingness to cede to the male land-grab of their rights - including, at present, one sole session for women (as opposed to mixed) in a rape crisis centre. Hence men get a choice of three groups whereas women self-exclude. The latest one I've seen is a woman who suffered a horrendous miscarriage in a station lavatory, aided by another woman, accused by TRAs of weaponizing that trauma, too. The abuse she received for sharing that story was both distressing and inevitable.

Perhaps think about the implications of a phrase like 'projecting their pain and trauma' onto victims of rape. I am one. And I find it gratuitously offensive.

Correction, men's spaces remaining 'intact', not 'attacked'. Of course they are not being attacked - they never are.

That kind of approach is where many people are at, i suggest. They are not naturally political or concerned with the analysis of society/politics/philosophy. so not really 'feminists' at all - beyond pop feminism - which is essentially meaningless beyond the label.

What does being "extremely pro trans" mean? .

Being a woman is just a matter of fact, of biology - males are not women, and females are not men. Women have integrity as women; though of course people are free, within certain limits, to express in any way they want.

This has been my view of Feminism for a number of years now. As a black woman, I know am not alone in this. The vocal cliquey feminist brand that is often pushed has nothing to offer us and we have nothing to offer it, other than contempt.

The challenge with identity politics is to not get into purity spiral and then eat ourselves up with infighting. It always happens if politics gets too extremist. Ultimately, a decision has to be made about how to deal with people who disagree.

Off topic somewhat, but I'm perturbed by the number of people who haven't seen the Barbie movie who feel they have authority to speak about it. A lot of the faux concerns/complaints about it are addressed directly in the movie.

I'm also just a bit amused in general about how whingey men have been about it. They don't really like being told that it wasn't written for them, either. Funny that.

If you trust him surely it doesn't matter whether you trust her or not?

Sorry-wrong thread!