Can we chat about reasons for not using trans name and pronouns?

[Teatimebrioche]

In a recent conversation about LGBTQ (well, just the TQ) I was asked if I'd be open to using the new name and pronouns of a trans person, theoretically speaking.

I said that I wouldn't, that it made me very uncomfortable and that I'd feel like I was lying by going along with it. That I didn't like the breaking down of reality and the female/male language and all that entails, and that it blurs boundaries.

But I ended up feeling pretty frustrated as that didn't really cover what I wanted to say and was a bit sound bitey. I just got more and more tongue tied when I tried to go into more detail. I've been trying to write down my thoughts on it since but I feel like they're all just swirling around my head and I can't isolate the thoughts well enough to formulate a proper sentence about it.

I especially feel it's detrimental to use the chosen name and pronouns for kids/teens, but again I can't articulate why even though I "know" why.

I agree with so much of what has been said on this board about it and when I listen to the likes of Helen Joyce, Kathleen Stock etc I find my head bobbing up and down in agreement.

What way would you answer if asked the same thing?

I don't accept the premise that it is by definition an attempt to 'deceive'.

I think asking a hypothetical question like this is meaningless, that’s why you couldn't answer.

I do not believe humans can change sex, because I know for a fact that we cannot.

I don't believe that anyone is inherently “trans” because that makes no sense.

however, I know some people who identify as trans, I met them this way. For instance one of them is a female person, who asserts they are male. They've done the whole birth certificate, post on facebook about their woes, are pining to cut off their breasts, and it’s really sad. I get along with this person greatly for who they are (as in nice, kind, friendly, funny, interesting), not what they think they are (trans). So of course I'm going to call them he and refer to them as a male, should it come up, but I do mostly try to avoid it, which is perfectly possible to do.

I also know a man who asserts he is a female. I met him this way, and I will basically do the same thing, yes, I will pretend this person is female.

Now it's not come up about toilets, they've not tried to go to the toilet with me, and if they did I can’t say how I would react. I don't think anyone can.

If a person I knew were thinking they were trans I also don’t know how I would react but I only know people I either love or am indifferent to so that would probably inform how I treated them after that, as in I would probably just distance myself if it became an issue, unless they were a close loved one (though this is really not going to happen) in which case I would probably go along with it out of love.

No wonder it’s put you in a tiz because it’s an impossible question designed to do so.

I have no issue using the chosen name of a trans person such as Laura for a male.
However, using he/she for someone who clearly isn't sticks in my throat. Like Kryten on Red Dwarf trying to say "Smeg Head" and failing .It completely goes against my programming as a biologist.

I also have a background in biology, and have no issue trying my best to call someone what they wish to be called.

Programming itself goes against claiming to be educated or wise. We adapt based on new evidence.

I am on your side with it being wrong.

It's just circumstantial.

As long as these people never ask me 'do you believe I am this sex?' it will just never, ever come up.

I never have to even use pronouns or refer to them as anything, as I never do with people who do not have a trans identity.

I never think about the fact my best friend is a woman. I never have to think about these people's sex either. And if I ever do I will deal with it as feels right at the time.

I wouldn't want to be programmed either way.

Agree.
There are plenty of names, as @XDownwiththissortofthingX listed, which are unisex, at least by sound, even if the spelling is different. Choosing a name that is exclusively associated with the female sex is a political act.

Having said that, you can change your name to anything you want and in practical terms other people have to use it so we know who is being addressed or talked about. But as a pp said, the previous name shouldn't be a big secret.

You can't change your sex, of course.

My husband and I both have names that are normal for either sex. Went to a wedding where we knew the groom, apparently the MOB had a big say in seating arrangements. It was strictly alternating male/female except on our table where I had a woman each side of me and DH had a male each side of him.

As the parent of teenagers where people in their friendship groups change their name and gender very frequently.... I find the deadname thing ridiculous and coercive. Using someone's "deadname" is seen as a heinous crime even when nobody has actually told you they've changed their name. If anyone has read the echo chamber by John Boyne, there's a chapter where a character is baffled when told by a woman he's never met that the man he previously worked with in that office never existed. It turns out of course the "woman" is the man and is rewriting history by claiming he's always been a woman. This is a comedy however it was scarily close to my real life. The ability for us to be clairvoyant as well as being willing to ignore our own knowledge, memory and eyes is expected by trans people.

I am confronted with this question at the moment as we are hosting a trans youth (child of family friends) — born and lived female til age 17 and now identifies as male, refers to self as a boy (or “gentleman”) and has asked to be called by a male name. I feel like I have gone down a rabbit hole. The youth does not appear to be male (despite a binder). We all use the new chosen name (a challenge at first, but no problem for me to use whatever name someone prefers). However, I cannot refer to the youth as the “son” of my friend nor can I use any masculine references without feeling a disconnect between my words and reality.
One of my children (thoroughly captured by trans ideology though not (to my knowledge) questioning her own gender) makes efforts to refer to the youth as a boy and a “good lad” etc even when such words are not necessary as if to underscore her acceptance that this young woman is a boy. At some point, I want to ask for an updated definition of the word “boy”. This youth was born female, looks and acts female (ie is not typically masculine in any way) and is genetically female. I just so t understand any definition of “boy” that can apply to this youth. (Perhaps needless to say, this youth is somewhere on the autism spectrum and has other mh challenges.)

I’ve used they and them for a long time. It was often useful in work when talking to parents about their children and not wishing to identify which child when they had a mix of the sexes( or when I’d forgotten it’s sex), feels fine to me. There are transitioned people amongst my dcs friends and I wouldn’t want to start a war by “misgendering”. The constant commenting on stereotypical behaviour of the transitioners is tiresome “ oh he’s such a boy” blah blah , as is the acceptance that anyone might choose to change gender. I do challenge that. My Dd recently suggested ds should change gender as our new dog barks at him and clearly feels a bit threatened. I replied tartly that the dog recognises sex not gender.

@Zebracat re comments on “Stereotypical behaviours” — I mentioned our houseguest is not “stereotypically masculine” in order to underscore the cognitive dissonance of calling a teenage young woman a “boy” or “man”. When I introduce the youth using the new name, invariably I get puzzled looks and then notice the new people switch to a more female name thinking they must have misheard me (ie if I say “this is John”, they reply, after a pause, “oh hello Joan”. As the youth is from another country, I don’t think she notices but it is clear no one who has met her during this visit thinks she is male. It is, indeed, very difficult for me to maintain this fiction but I endeavour.

I get puzzled looks and then notice the new people switch to a more female name thinking they must have misheard me (ie if I say “this is John”, they reply, after a pause, “oh hello Joan”.

For years I habitually gave Starbucks a particular male name to go on my coffee cup (it was an in joke about an old Guardian column).

Very rarely did I get a cup that had the name on it that I had requested, it was almost always a feminised version or diminutive.

Human brains look for a female
person if they hear a stereotypically female name, and will autocorrect if something seems incongruent!

I presume this incongruence is one of the reasons that rock stars and rock bands have embraced ‘feminine’ names and/or terms?

(I actually made a little list!)

Alice Cooper
Marilyn Manson
Rachel Bolan
Stacey Blades

Molly Hatchet
Jane’s Addiction
Alice in Chains
Pearl Jam
Thin Lizzy
Good Charlotte
Roxy Music
Joy Division (OK, that one is a stretch!)
Iron Maiden
Queen

@Inamuddle36 I wasn’t criticising you. I’m sure there are transpeople who like more stuff typically associated with their chosen gender, but, the transwomen I’ve met have tended towards stereotypically masculine occupations and interests, think tech, rugby, trains and the transmen towards stereotypically feminine, like nursing, literature, makeup. So my kids would be laughing that Stacey is such a girl cos they got lost, when actually Stacey’s a lorry driver, who used to be Stan, or that Leo is such a boy cos they like tailoring, but their suit is pink and they look a lot like Kylie in it. Not outing anyone, fictitious names and examples.

cloglady
Queens of the Stone Age

This issue of pronouns is a struggle. I’m always getting criticised by DC for not using the preferred pronouns of either their friends or even of well known NB celebs (eg the eternally youthful looking Mae Martin).

It feels crazy that I’m expected to constantly ensure that I refer to Mae as ‘they’ or DC’s friend’s preferred pronouns when Mae or said friends do not know that there is a conversation going on about them in our household! But still told over and over again that it is only ‘respectful’ to do so. Why?

@Zebracat i think you mean transWOMEN tend toward stereotypically “feminine” activities and occupations and transMEN tend toward stereotypically masculine activities and occupations — right? — in both cases to accentuate their migration toward another gender.
In the case of the youth I have described: said youth has no stereotypically male interests (other than to slouch and occasionally experiment with cursing) — I don’t think anyone would recognise the youth as a “boy”, hence the constant sense of cognitive dissonance I feel at the moment when looking at and speaking with a girl who requires I accept she is a boy.

Another one saying a name is just a name.

I could change mine by deedpole to Bobcat Goldthwaite next week if I wanted to and we have that right.

But as Shakespeare said 'A rose by any other name...'. A name magically changing one's pronouns is my brick wall. No, it doesn't.

All this applies to grown ups by the way. I don't believe in social transition for minors.

👍🏼

I bet there are loads more too!

@Inamuddle36 my experience is more like @Zebracat 's - that interests of the trans people i know tend to remain more typical of those associated with their sex - eg i know a young transmam whose main interests are art, drawing and making clothes. And an older nonbinary person who likes lots and lots of kinky sex - they're male.

'Some women are happy to use female pronouns for male people as a courtesy. I choose to only refer to male people using male pronouns because biological sex is meaningful.'

I don't believe Pearl Jam is a feminine term. I believe it's ... quite the opposite.

Well yes, but I was in innocently thinking ‘lady name’ rather than…

… something most definitely male.

🤢

@Inamuddle36 No , no mistake.

TheClogLady · Today 09:19

Re your list, my dad had a friend called Beverley Howden, a burly farmer. He lived in Howden, near Beverley.

Anyway, in general, I'd use a name which a person told me, however strange and awkward. Also in general, I wouldn't pander to pronouns, if a trans person were not present.

However: my daughter brought some friends home, a few weeks ago. I thought that Polly was a butch girl; skirt, girl's shoes, long hair with a sort of partly shaved mullet.

It later transpired that Polly is "a biological boy, but a real girl..."

After a bit of conversation, where I brought up Maya, Alison Bailey, K Stock and Pink Leggings Rapist & Katie Dolatowski. ( The kids are ten, so it was a bit simplified). To avoid tears, I agreed to call Polly "her" and she seems to understand that there are some bad players out there.

She had a look at a report on the lady assaulted at Women Won't Wheesht Aberdeen and was angr that the Police have let him off.

So, I'm not sure if it's progress entirely.

Most of the teenagers I know who have changed their names - all girls - each have a compelling reason for leaving their old names behind. They have all chosen unisex names, including the one who wishes to identify as "male" - the rest say they are "non-binary".
I have no problem using their new names, but as they are children it does carry risk that their special needs - they are all SEN - get overlooked.
When I first encountered pronouns I couldn't believe it. I thought it was a joke. Then a couple of times I had to ask where a girl was, and send a friend to give her something. Socially, that's an incredibly awkward situation. These kids are either autistic or traumatised or both. I sometimes feel like pronouns are the least of their problems and so I should call them whatever they prefer. "Where is Red? The Timeout room? Okay, please could you take their backpack to them and say I hope they feel better soon?"
More often however, their sex is relevant.
If someone hits me, I will use sex-based pronouns to describe the incident. In that context "They hit me" is even more problematic.