Can we chat about reasons for not using trans name and pronouns?

[Teatimebrioche]

In a recent conversation about LGBTQ (well, just the TQ) I was asked if I'd be open to using the new name and pronouns of a trans person, theoretically speaking.

I said that I wouldn't, that it made me very uncomfortable and that I'd feel like I was lying by going along with it. That I didn't like the breaking down of reality and the female/male language and all that entails, and that it blurs boundaries.

But I ended up feeling pretty frustrated as that didn't really cover what I wanted to say and was a bit sound bitey. I just got more and more tongue tied when I tried to go into more detail. I've been trying to write down my thoughts on it since but I feel like they're all just swirling around my head and I can't isolate the thoughts well enough to formulate a proper sentence about it.

I especially feel it's detrimental to use the chosen name and pronouns for kids/teens, but again I can't articulate why even though I "know" why.

I agree with so much of what has been said on this board about it and when I listen to the likes of Helen Joyce, Kathleen Stock etc I find my head bobbing up and down in agreement.

What way would you answer if asked the same thing?

I’m trying to think how often in general conversation I use pronouns at all
maybe it’s not so much of a problem unless you are discussing the teen in a professional role …

I am unable to grasp this them they.
A girl we know is identifying as a boy at a young age, 12 years old.
So now I refer to this person as?
Name has been changed to a masculine name.
Would it not be him or is that once they have begun treatments or surgeries?.
Why they them?
No I do not want banned or attacked but an explanations please.

I think I'd be hanged, drawn and quartered if I didn't use gender neutral pronouns in a social setting where I live (Canada)!

I don't care what people want to dress up as or believe they are but I'd never ever call a man she or her.

I have a 20 year old FTM.
Male chosen name, uses MX and the pronoun they. This is recent since university.
We have been on this journey for 6 years.
I don't mind the male name which she (I'll come back to that) uses with friends and lecturers but he as a pronoun has caused some serious safeguarding issues. The pp asked what happens when you are expecting a man and get a very obvious women as in my daughter? My DC has been part time job hunting, has been looking for a year. No offers. I think it causes confusion which stops acceptance. If you just say I like to be called Fred who cares?
Recently we have had two incidents of maintenance walking in on DC parcially clothed in her accommodation. I bet you the halls sheet says 'Fred'. A man walking in on a man is locker room stuff, not so a natal female.
The DC had one professor call her a her (still the same chosen name ). They were mortified and fearful. My DC and I had a big discussion about it and she accepted they (used by Shakespeare she told me!). I explained how difficult it is for third parties and the risks to their employment. I never use he and my DC knows why. She is a she and an ardent feminist underneath all the ideology. For decades only 2000 people a year had surgery in the UK. I believe there are now 20000 people waiting, mainly young girls. Very few natal men have the full monty, funny that.

... a proper gender and sex neutral pronoun is never going to catch on at this stage of the evolution of the English language, I think it would be better if we'd had one all along.
We have. It's "it".
I'm aware that it would be considered unthinkably rude to use "it" to refer to a person, but it does exist and it's a gender- and- sex-neutral pronoun that we already use to refer to the third-person singular of everything except people.

Couldn’t agree more.

PS I love your daughter’s (or is it your son 😂) videos

Napody, pronouns are sex based. In most languages in the world.

«Race» in humans is a completely social construct. We are just one human race. Which is dimorphic and propagates via sexual reproduction. So we have two sexes: woman and man. Female and male.

The language is used to reflect reality. Of course we are able to lie, but it really is not always the best thing to do.

@napody ”There is no reason for the rules of grammar to centre someone’s sex every time you speak about them” - interesting perspective 😵‍💫 but languages evolved over centuries and will continue evolving. There are many reasons why, in your words, grammar centres sex (can’t speak for every language ever spoken, obv). Can you think of a more efficient, clearer way of talking about / referring to a person, eg talking to a colleague about your boss, aside from repeating your boss’s name every time? I can’t.

OP, yes I think it’s harder with teenagers, especially friends of your dc - you’ve often known them a long time, but maybe don’t know them very well. I’d use preferred names (or try to anyway), but not pronouns, so I’d probably have to do the linguistic juggling. Luckily none of my dc’s friends has yet been sucked into this. One of my colleagues has an NB child, I just use the name, but it isn’t easy

If Bob wants to be called James, I would do that without a problem. But if Bob wants to be called Laura, while I would do so I would feel uncomfortable.

But there is no way I will ever refer to Bob used pronouns meant for females.

I am autistic and find navigating the NT world tricky enough. I am not going to add lies to that complexity.

@HagoftheNorth I have quite a few trans teenagers and young adults that I know and tbh you'd be a lot braver than me to insist on sex-based pronouns when it comes to it. I'm most likely to be talking about them to their parents (I employ a lot of teenagers for cat sitting, odd jobs etc) and I know the parents are usually at some level of struggle with how to cope with the whole situation and I feel I'm making life unnecessarily painful for them by insisting my right to rational language trumps their relationship with their child.

I’m connected to an organisation where a young, relatively new member of the staff team is trans. They presented their CV and job application in their birth name and came for interview presenting as their birth sex and gender consistent with that. They were appointed.

Day one in the job, announced their non binary status and asked for colleagues to use their new, gender-neutral name and pronouns. 18 months later, we’re using another new name and pronouns more aligned with the opposite gender. They now describe themselves as trans.

They are currently having problems with their mental health as they have “ heard on the grapevine” that members of senior leadership don’t always use their preferred pronouns when speaking about them. This is not deliberate, people just forget.

As a result, leadership is concerned that the organisation is a step away from being subject to legal action, despite having done all it can to accommodate the staff member’s needs and wants. A lot of management time is being taken up by these issues in a small organisation that is already stretched, but this staff member’s needs must be prioritised.

I'd probably use someone's preferred name, I've no issues with whatever name people want to call themselves. Very unlikely I'd remember to use preferred pronouns, I see the world as I see the world and I give zero fucks if that offends someone 🤷‍♀️

@VesperLind the situation you have described is straight out of the trans idelogy handbook.
Some time ago my DC was doing something similar. Two name changes, accusations of 'bullying' by staff for the wrong pronoun.
All this was coming from 'community' friends. This community can be very manipulative to young minds. Some of you will know how they encourage family to be threatened if they don't affirm.
I have employed two mtf people in my time. One old school and one very active in creating drama. The first gentle and going about their business.
Sex is natal to me and I stand by that. It's the only thing that I had to hold onto.

The problem is that for some people it isn’t just “a new name”. It’s a demand for submission.

Confused teen working out their place in the world? Fine, I’ll call them whatever name they wish. Middle-aged AGP suddenly demanding they’re Cynthia not Colin? Nope…I’ll do everything I can to avoid using their name at all, because it’s not a “new identity”, it’s them revelling in the power they have to make women (in particular) submit to their fetish. And if it’s a public figure shitting all over women’s rights and encouraging others to do the same, damned sure I’m going to use their “deadname”. I don’t respect them or their behaviour so I’m not going to respect any other of their demands.

I never use so-called preferred pronouns, just as I never refer to myself as “infidel” or “heretic”. The most I will concede is using “they” in situations where it would be detrimental to myself to be seen as being too dogmatic about it (in certain quarters at my Stonewalled workplace, for example).

Pronouns kinda depend on the situation. And whether you can remember!

This is a huge point that is often overlooked. If every individual you have contact with ends their verbal or email introduction with " . . . and my pronouns are they/them; xe/xey; fishknife/teapot" or whatever, then how in God's name are we supposed to remember as many sets of pronouns as we have acquaintances?

The whole point of the "pro" in pronoun is that it stands FOR a proper noun. It's not intended to have the same level of individual personalisation as the proper noun itself, it's a shorthand and the only information it conveys is a pointer to the person it stands for.

That's one of the ridiculous things about this whole business - it pretends things have more meaning than they do. "Male" just means you make sperm not ova, and have the various physical attributes arising from that; it doesn't mean people are making assumptions about your "gender identity" (whatever that is). "He" is just a quicker and more elegant way of referring to you than using your name over and over again.

The same reason I wouldn't call someone your majesty because they decided that they were royal and these are their pronouns.

To be forced to deny my beliefs and my eyes is triggering and harmful to me and their needs shouldn't trump mine

I don’t really care about names (plenty of men in rock with ‘girl’ names, eg Rachel Bolan, Alice Cooper!) but I stick with sexed pronouns or laboriously avoid using pronouns.

With kids and teens I think it’s important to keep them grounded and connected with the family and their history and not encourage total reinvention of the self, so while I wouldn’t recommend outright ignoring a request for a new name (risks alienation) I suggest finding a compromise position, eg using a childhood nickname or real name initials or a short form/less gendered version of a birth name.

When I started school, my teacher was a good friend of my parents. I was verbally paralysed by this, couldn’t call her any name at all in class, she was Beryl out of school and Mrs Dooley in school and all the other children called her “Miss” which I felt physically unable to do. So I called her nothing at all, ever! Think that’s what I’d probably do with people’s pronouns these days, although have no problem calling people by the name they’ve chosen for themselves.

I will call anyone the name they ask me to use - that is polite. I would even attempt to use the pronouns that were asked of me (for similar reasons). But I will not “announce” my own pronouns, nor will I accept that a man is a woman and I won’t feel comfortable sharing a single sexual space (eg a lavatory or changing room) with a man, even if he asks to be called “she” or a conventionally female name.

My father was one of my subject teachers in the second form (yr 8) and sixth forms. Avoiding pronouns (or using 'they' for a known person) is much easier than only being able to use a pronoun without first establishing who it refers to!

I am also forever indebted to Maya et al. However, please note that the Employment Appeal Tribunal decision doesn’t give the green light to insisting on sex-based pronouns and ignoring preferred pronouns. To the contrary it says that misgendering may constitute harassment. It does depend on the circumstances, but even Maya said that she would usually use someone’s preferred pronouns as a courtesy.

I am fairly awful with names at the best of times, so while I will try to be polite, having spent 20 years calling someone Betty means remembering that they're now called Barney is pretty much beyond me. Similarly with pronouns, remembering which ones you prefer is largely hit or miss, so there's either going to be a long awkward pause in the conversation or I'm going to go with the first one that comes to mind.

I am ok about calling someone by their name and if someone tells me there name is Fred or Wilma that is what I would call them - but as of referring to them by a pronoun which is clearly incorrect then I would not go alone with this. I wouldn't make a point of saying he or she but would not make an effort as it is not true and does not follow biology which is fact.