Can we chat about reasons for not using trans name and pronouns?

[Teatimebrioche]

In a recent conversation about LGBTQ (well, just the TQ) I was asked if I'd be open to using the new name and pronouns of a trans person, theoretically speaking.

I said that I wouldn't, that it made me very uncomfortable and that I'd feel like I was lying by going along with it. That I didn't like the breaking down of reality and the female/male language and all that entails, and that it blurs boundaries.

But I ended up feeling pretty frustrated as that didn't really cover what I wanted to say and was a bit sound bitey. I just got more and more tongue tied when I tried to go into more detail. I've been trying to write down my thoughts on it since but I feel like they're all just swirling around my head and I can't isolate the thoughts well enough to formulate a proper sentence about it.

I especially feel it's detrimental to use the chosen name and pronouns for kids/teens, but again I can't articulate why even though I "know" why.

I agree with so much of what has been said on this board about it and when I listen to the likes of Helen Joyce, Kathleen Stock etc I find my head bobbing up and down in agreement.

What way would you answer if asked the same thing?

Again with the false equivalence.

I wouldn't call myself God either.

I am not aware consciously which pronouns I am using generally, and I don’t know why I should start.

I’ll call someone whatever stupid name they want. I only know someone who transitioned and in the end (when they realised they hadn’t in fact changed sex) they used the shortened version of their new name which was ‘gender neutral’. DH and I struggle to remember their ‘dead name’.

I don’t think Elliott Pages previous work should have the name changed from Ellen for instance, that was their name when they made it.

I would use whatever name someone introduced themselves to me, however I wouldn't use an obviously wrong pronoun towards them. If I had to, I'd substitute for their actual name if really pressed.

New names, fine. I'd probably use preferred pronouns in front of that person and I'd have to at work or face disciplinary action. Referring to them if they're not there, I'd use 'they' or just avoid talking about them at all. When talking about situations where sex is relevant, I tend to use correct sex pronouns or it just gets impossible to have a clear conversation.

It's just a name ....
Unless names have meaning and are signifiers

It's tricky op, because it feels shallow but significant at the same time.

And therefore easy to get tongue tied.

Personally, I find it simplest to just say that I profoundly disagree with transgenderism as a belief system and therefore am not comfortable endorsing it.

You can say it's not personal or about individuals.

If someone is going to pin you down, then confrontation is inevitable tho. But having established that you disagree with the whole 'movement', it's more straightforward to defend that than isolated parts of it.

Thanks, I enjoyed reading all the replies. In terms of name changing, I'm realising that I was thinking more of someone changing their name where I previously knew them under their birth name.
If they changed it to a general nickname (nothing to do with trans) I'd have no issue with it but would no doubt slip up at times if I'd known the person for a long time. All fine and to be expected.

Which is making me realise that it's not actually about the name at all, it's about the new name being linked to new pronouns which is linked to the trans ideology and the eroding of women's spaces, safe guarding and the issue of transing kids that I'm uncomfortable with.
So maybe I'll ask a new question now that I've nailed down exactly where my line of thinking is going.

How would you feel about a child or teenager asking to be called a new name and pronouns due to them feeling that they are trans?

Would their age make a difference, young or older teen, to your views on it?

Would it make a difference if they were autistic?

And probably an even bigger question, but how would you feel if it were your own child asking if you'd call them a new name and new pronouns? I think this is a big one because it's much easier to be detached when it's someone else's child. It would be far more difficult when you're worried about your own child and potential mental health issues/safe guarding/worry about where things will go when your child is of an age to potentially look at medication and/or surgery.

But you have to

So just to clarify, I'm asking more about new pronouns (rather than a new name) for kids and teens.

Being Lesbian and Gay, same-sex attracted, has nothing in common with people who believe they have a gender identity.

@davinapple well quite, don't all lives matter? But that wasn't my question.

One of DDs uni friends has transitioned. I'm perfectly happy to use the new name but just can't use wrong sex pronouns.

I'm fine with a new name. The pronouns, a hard no. I'd only use them when they weren't there, so how would they know, and have previously done the linguistic gymnastics to use the new name instead in order not to be reported (university). I won't lie.

If you are not there, why do you care what pronouns are used as you don't know? Whereas it is compelling my speech which is not ok.

I've got nothing against trans people, I choose not to go along with the fantasy, I'm too long in the tooth for that business.

@davinapple I genuinely don't get why the t is joined to the lgb. Lgb is sexuality, who you are attracted to. T is identity, so totally different.

My identity is short-haired villa fan, lover of cricket, heterosexual woman who has experimented in the past, violin player, wears make up every day, classics scholar, where do I fit.

Why the need to put people in boxes?

My other identity is bad water colourist, painter in sweary colouring in books, decent cook, cruciverbalist, cat lover and collecter of taxidermy. Pronouns do not help with this.

Makes them feel special

Personally, I'd call someone by the name they asked me to use and I'd use the pronouns they requested out of politeness, although it doesn't come up often as we don't use the third person in that person's presence.

If I did decide not to use requested pronouns, I'd assert that I use 'he' and 'she' to refer to sex, not gender, as gender is a fluid social construct and can't be held as an identity or a label.

True. But when everyone is special, no one is...

(Mourns the time when being left handed was so special we had a shop in Covent Garden)

I'd NEVER use 'preferred pronouns', pronouns are the perogative of the speaker. Anything else is compelled speech, forced acquiescence to someone else's delusion

Difficult to say really. For me, it might depend on context. My daughter has various friends who’ve transitioned and there might be little chance of avoiding both name and pronouns when talking about them as to avoid pronouns requires using a name as you have to refer to them somehow.

In addition, the one friend I did meet who I noticed my daughter used they/them pronouns for had a unisex name. I felt uncomfortable enough with the they/them pronoun usage that I avoided it. They/them properly annoys me. The friend seemed lovely though and I wouldn’t want to hurt my daughter, so wouldn’t make a fuss.

But when it comes to arrogant men, who are showing strong AGP vibes, I avoid pronouns and use surnames on here, because I refuse to pander to them in any way. If it occurred in real life that I had to deal with such a man, I think I would strenuously avoid any situation where I had to interact or talk about them. I might use the demanded name or pronoun out of fear, but I would be very distressed by having to do it.

I think a name can, effectively, be a lie.

Anyone meeting a Helen or a Jane for the first time would expect to be meeting a woman. If you turned up for a one on one meeting with someone you thought was a woman, but it turned out it was a man, you might feel very uncomfortable or unsafe.